Pimax day backlash!

[Axacuatl]

I’ve read multiple times that the eye-trackers for the Vive cost only 150$ so we are being ripped off. Just read the explanation, these are neither 90° eye-trackers nor are they sold in the volume HTC will reach. Some basic understanding of the economics of R&D and scale would really help get this kind of discussion into a completely different shape.

@Hoshi82

Of course making it better costs more, then don’t make stretchgoals if you not sure you can keep the promise. Now it feels like “Let’s bait some more backers and make some stretchgoals, who cares if we don’t keep word.”

And what is the point of Kickstarter ? Letting a company do everything to make it keep its promises or rather provide capital for a start-up to get their initial funding to establish a sustainable product offering on a commercial market aftert the KS campaign ?
Spoiler - it is the latter.

Of course you have to beware of abusive use of KS promises, but I honestly cannot see Pimax having abused this. They kept most of their promises to a greater degree, albeit with delays.

They had the choice of abandoning eye-tracking, introducing a cheap but largely useless version or going for the high-end version. The chose for the last. Just as they chose for 200° (170°), now 2x4K etc… It is their general approach, and not aimed at ripping off the backers.

This attitude, to aim for the rather high-end version of available options is exactly what drew my attention, and attracted me enough to lay 1,700$ on the table during the KS campaign.

They are clearly amateurish to some degree, but the intention to boldly go where Valve, Oculus and HTC don’t have the guts to go is great! And it is not always to their advantage, if they make design changes - the upscaler in the 8KX will come for free to backers, although it was not part of the KS offering at the time. But again they wanted to make their product a better product.

[Axacuatl]

@Hoshi82

No matter what. Thats how it is now and that means I won’t have eyetracking in my hmd. Crap happens. At least I get free handtracking for the oculus quest.

What I have read & heard of the Quest handtracking, it’s not that great actually. If you just want to use it for a very limited set of instructions, e.g. operate the Netflix app, it may do the job, but not what true hand-tracking like the Leapmotion module can provide.

As to the eye-tracking - a cheap eye-tracking would have meant you get it for free, but have limited use cases for it and after a couple of weeks it is no longer used and end of story. The high-performance option means that this actually stands a chance to provide a great added value, but probably only over time when software starts to make use of it. So for all of you who have an issue with dishing out 200$ I’d suggest to wait and purchase it say in a year when it has proven to be useful. But at least the Pimax headsets will then have the option to provide really good eye-tracking rather than a Netflix-operation gimmick like the Quest hand-tracking appears to be at this stage.

[Century]

@neal_white_iii

Это не было бессмысленно. Это дало нам 8K почти на 1 год раньше.

Было ли это именно то, что было обещано? Нет.

We didn’t receive what we should have received. And you confirm this in your own words, contradicting yourself.

With the same success, we could get 5K +, maybe 5K + looks even better (unfortunately, I did not have the opportunity to compare, but most chose 5K +).

Personally, I would wait for 8K with real RGB panels, if there was such an opportunity.
(Moreover, the new panels probably were already on the horizon at that time)

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Yes, I myself, by and large, approved the headset in my review. (but mostly just because of the FOV)

But I immediately lacked high resolution, even compared to Lenovo Explorer.
Comparison, I think everyone has already seen.

https://community.openmr.ai/t/big-comparison-image-quality-lenovo-explorer-vs-pimax-8k-a-lot-of-photos/19066

Here the thing is that I perfectly visualized what 8K with 4K RGB panels should have been.
Happy were only those who did not understand the difference.

Therefore, I was not even surprised when SweViver began to lay out the first comparisons of 8KX and 8K + with 5K +. For me, it was just the quality standard for 8K with 4K panels, which we all expected from og8К.

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What surprises me is that Pimax is spreading 8K + as a new product, and not like what OG 8K should have been.
(but I understand their motives, if they don’t want to change og 8K to 8K +, that is, they don’t want to give us what we originally supported. Therefore, they position 8K + as a new product, forcing us to buy it again.
And it looks like a joke, sarcasm and disrespect for its backers.
Because we have to buy for the second time what we supported 2 years ago.
And this is complete nonsense, and for the full price with a ridiculous discount…)

[Heliosurge]

Simply put the 5k+ was something they could do as the panel tech was available. The 8k+ however including the 8kX they couldn’t guarantee that New panels would be available by the time the 8kX would be nearing release. So it was possible the 8kX might have released with same 8k panels, no scaler & dual cable inputs.

The 8k as Voodoodx even said is still a great headset and I do agree with that. As we know the colors & sde are much better than the 5k+ & it doesn’t suffer the banding & blacks are better.

MAS & other items are coming out this year with exception of controllers slotted for next spring/summer. LHes are said to start shipping I beleive in 3 to 4 weeks.

[Heliosurge]

@Century

With the same success, we could get 5K +, maybe 5K + looks even better (unfortunately, I did not have the opportunity to compare, but most chose 5K +)

Though subjective. Most who have or had both picked the 8k over the 5k+. Now it would have been interesting for more to have had this. Noro for example was happy as well with having the mistakeningly shipped 5k+ exchanged for the 8k.

Due to confusion created yes it was not RGB & at the time 4k rgb capable panels did not exist.

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Yes I am annoyed on the prospect of the upgrade path. But we don’t know the final result & how they might alter things after receiving feedback.

The 8k released is what could be made & was as presented (better) at Tested Review in terms of panels.

[Century]

Yes, 8K has become the best VR headset for me thanks to its FOV.
I did not even pay attention to distortions, they practically did not bother me.

And only the resolution of the panels was at the level of WMR-headsets 1440x1440.
And that pretty quickly ruined my experience with car simulators.

I specifically built a cockpit with a steering wheel, pedals and gearbox before my 8K arrived.
I was ready completely, but 8K was not quite ready because of the panels.

Despite this, the 8K was the best headset, because with approximately equal SDE and clarity compared to other top-end headsets, it had a much higher FOV. It pleased.

But I abandoned the car simulators because everything was still lacking in clarity, pixels were visible on the horizon.

That is, I did not go very far with my 8K. Although the wide FOV I really like.
But this is the only global difference with other headsets.

At VR-headsets, the main components of success are: Resolution and FOV.
I agree with FOV 8K.
But its resolution is not an achievement.

Again, Pimax was promised the best resolution for us based on the Kickstarter campaign.

And they already had Pimax 4K with amazing clarity, but with big minuses, making it not quite suitable for VR gaming.
But they did not even reach its quality, unfortunately.

[risa2000]

A bit off-topic, but nevertheless - for some reason I see @neal_white_iii quote in Russian, also the translation (judging by my ancient Russian knowledge ) sounds quite good. How did you do that?

[Heliosurge]

Yeah. Now something I did forget is that folks have said the distortions seem less apparent on the 8k vs the 5k+. This I suspect has to do with pixel layout & increased density. So it’s possible with the 4k rgb panels may reduce perceived distortions to a bit better effect(yes slight warping is likely to be present without dynamic distortion correction)

Yeah the p4k was great with the Rainbow RGB panels. It’s 2 bad that these were not available in 4k with needed refresh & such. I would be curious to see if QHD Rainbow RGB panels would look nicer in the 5k+ as not fussy on the stacked bricks.

It could be said pimax released what they could as best at the time. I think it would have been awesome if those 4k Oled 732ppi panels demoed in 2015 had come to bare fruit. But they have been mia since then.

[Century]

Oops …
This is all the built-in Google translator in Chrome

Although, I don’t know why the quotation came out like this, usually everything was normal in English.
Yes, it looks unusual

[Century]

Well, at the moment, Pimax has got good 4K RGB panels.

And with these panels we get the real 8K in the form of 8K +.

I would like to see specific proposals for switching to 8K + or 8KX from Pimax: exchange program, panel replacement, or something else.
Let them already say yes or no.

I need this to decide already whether I should sell my 8K now. (Because before the release of 8K + and 8KX on the shelves this will be more profitable to do).
I am afraid now to sell my 8K in order to later find out that they are implementing an exchange or replacement panels program.

[Octofox]

[Virtualmisterl]

[Cynicism_FTW]

You might want to go ahead sand sell I just saw two 8ks break even. Since they already said that the “upgrade” (discount) program doesn’t involve sending your headset back

[Century]

yes, but @Heliosurge once mentioned a panel replacement program (although this is not accurate).
@PimaxVR for some reason is silent about this.

[Digital]

@Axacuatl

And what is the point of Kickstarter ? Letting a company do everything to make it keep its promises or rather provide capital for a start-up to get their initial funding to establish a sustainable product offering on a commercial market aftert the KS campaign ?
Spoiler - it is the latter.

Of course you have to beware of abusive use of KS promises, but I honestly cannot see Pimax having abused this.

Pimax is neither a Start-Up else i wouldn’t have backed them nor are they going out of business they are soon offering 8 different headsets as a direct result of the KS campaign. So i don’t see why they should be free to weasel out of the KS Contract. And yes it is a contract and not some baseless promise where you can change the rules to your liking after the fact.

@Axacuatl

They kept most of their promises to a greater degree, albeit with delays.

They don’t. They were a year late on the Headset the 8K is not what was stated during the campaign and they basically devalued it even further with the 5K+ which made me finally change from the 8K to the 5K+. That’s a 100$ that are basically lost if i don’t buy anything else from Pimax.
Quality Control is also a huge problem and they said they fixed the housing issue but some guys here already went through their 4. RMA and still receive headsets that will crack.

The Controllers now are 2 years late with at least another 8 month waiting only to eventually find out that they will never be finished. Yay they offer to switch to Index controllers but they are 279$ retail from the Vavle store but Pimax is asking for nearly 400$ on a thing they will Bulk order. And no one of Pimax is able to offer an explanation why we should pay more than the Valve retail price if we want to switch so we can finally have the controllers. On top of that 400$ i also bought Vive wands to at least use the headset… also money that is lost. For the same money i could have bought 2 sets of Valve index controllers directly from Valve.

The Basestations it was said they will produce their own 2.0 stations and they are partner of Valve.
Turns out that may only have been half of the trues and we will basically end up with Valve produced lighthouses 2 years later. May or may not have been their fault but in the meantime i had to invest in my own 1.0 Lighthouses so that i at least could use my 5K+, money that i could have used to buy 2.0 stations directly from Valve.

@Axacuatl

They had the choice of abandoning eye-tracking, introducing a cheap but largely useless version or going for the high-end version. The chose for the last. Just as they chose for 200° (170°), now 2x4K etc… It is their general approach, and not aimed at ripping off the backers.

They deceided to move the goalpost that is their decision they haven’t asked any of us and personally for me a basic eyetracking would have been better than no eyetracking at all. The usability of this now 200$(300$) eyetracker still needs to be proven anyway. And i am not going to send them any more money for things that should be free

@Axacuatl

This attitude, to aim for the rather high-end version of available options is exactly what drew my attention

Me too but what is the investment good for if they don’t deliver as said during the KS campaign.

The Headstrap is another example of this. On KS it was one unit with detachable earphones. What we get now is a 2 piece headstrap with the front part being 50$ extra and the detachable earphone became an extra that we also need to pay for later if they will ever be available.

[peteo]

@Youthfullion

I think everyone agrees with you that Pimax could not provide good eye tracking for free

This might be the case, but in the end the reneged on the stretch goal which is against the TOS of kickstarter. It might be reasonable if they offered backers who now do not want to buy the eye tracker (because its $200 and not free) a coupon for the value for what they thought the free one would have cost them so we could use it on something else. Also I do not think the $200 they are charging backers for the eyetracking is resealable because in reality it probably not costing pimax any thing at this price (I.E. they are breaking even).

[VR247]

@Axacuatl

So for all of you who have an issue with dishing out 200$ I’d suggest to wait and purchase it say in a year when it has proven to be useful.

That is exactly my plan but I have no idea if the $100 discount will be offered beyond the October promotions. It is slightly bothersome to me that they can’t just readjust their pricing scheme to account for their poor planning, but that would require them to do aditional planning on pricing and timelines. We know how that goes with pimax! I see your side that “you and others” feel that its not that big of a deal. But I also believe everyone must of found it at least slightly annoying and not what they had offered. They appear to me to be baiting the backers into spending. We are their closest following and that is marketing i guess. I feel they would make better on making sure the backers are overly impressed with their products and company practices. Then the product will sell themselves at any price they set. I mean if they choose to have an angry “mob” (even if is just kevins angry 8) chasing them around pointing out their products short comings and business practices. Thats their fault.

Sure wish the forum would just take an open approach. So the community felt they have the freedom to openly state the way they feel without the fear of being attacked for simply stating how they feel. Im sure there are people (on all sides) that feel strongly about somthing but just sit back and watch because they don’t want to be attacked for their views. Pimax has opened the forum to hear our feedback and everyone should have the right to state their feelings no matter how absurd other may feel it is.

Sorry if you feel I am targeting you. I’m not. Just in general I would like to see more of a range of peoples views. A survey so to say of how they feel without bias.

They should have a pimax day survey monkey and show the results.

[Cynicism_FTW]

Firstly hes a community member not pimax employee. He and many others have suggested both panel replacement and trade in programs. The last I hear d pimax mention anything about it was March. And maybe its just me but I’m pretty sure somebody did their job and realized how little money they would be making thus the “upgrade” (discount) program.

[neal_white_iii]

@Century

We didn’t receive what we should have received. And you confirm this in your own words, contradicting yourself.

“Should have received” is different than “exactly like what was promised”. This was a Kickstarter for a design that was not yet finalized. A Kickstarter project is a hope we can, not a guarantee of delivery. I don’t believe I contradicted myself. I like my 8K HMD a lot, even though Pimax has made (and continues to make) poor choices. Even so, I would say that the Kickstarter was successful.

As for the eyetracker, as a bonus item, I figured that, since it was free, that it would be a cheap crappy unit that I would not actually use. That didn’t bother me much, since there are few games which would use it and (at the time) foveated rendering was not going to be viable in the next few years. I don’t mind, particularly, if I didn’t get something I didn’t think I was going to use.

Kickstarters are iffy. I got a headset, which was (seriously) better than I expected, because I set my expectations according to a small Chinese company’s ability to actually deliver a product. Not all Kickstarters succeed, but I say this one was a “qualified success”.

[Century]

Would you agree to replace the panels?
Or do you see only the way to replace the headset?

In principle, replacing panels is also an option, especially since someone has already managed to do it on their own. Pimax sent him a whole panel instead of a broken one. He successfully replaced her.