Hmm I have no idea. But even if that’s true, not sure what your point is?
Not sure what your point is?
Yeah for sure. In my opinion they’re currently the best out there but even those are not very suitable for wfov.
Pimax often copies from existing designs. As @MarcoBalletta showed me a link for Hypervision; I suspect the 12k lenses are either in part made by them or pimax took cues from their design to make their own version(last one is likely vs partnering).
This should be obvious. Most manufacturers want the easier design. Less costs in R&D and the traditional design is friendlier for a much larger consumer base. So more profitable to use simpler designs.
Well for wide FoV we will have to wait & see how Hypervision’s hybrid pancakes work out. But I suspect we will see something much better than are currently used. Maybe sci Fi deal of projecting images into the eyes maybe or MojoVision contacts.
However with maybe the exception of folks like you. Mojovision is not in my opinion likely hit the consumer market until we have at least 1 foot in the grave. 
Ok but it’s not just that it’s more profitable. It’s also that the tech is just not there yet. A good explanation is that video that I posted a while ago The state of VR optics which sums up where we’re currently at and what the limitations are.
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But the Crystal doesn’t even register on the Steam Hardware Survey. Even the Oculus DK1 appears after 10 years. It could be Crystal users are no longer using SteamVR but that must be a specific subset of VR players.
I don’t think Pimax have sold more than 5000 Crystals so far. Vision Pro has seen around 200,000 pre orders even though it costs twice as much.
If Pimax want to survive they need to shrink the Crystal or justify the size with a wide FOV which is what put Pimax on the map.
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You don‘t really want to compare Pimax to Apple, do you. Of course Pimax will never come anywhere close to sales figures Apple achieves, even if their products were resounding successes.
But I also hope for Pimax that they will get the 12K ready soon because the Crystal is clearly is an interim headset, a compromised by-product of the 12K development, and as such it is burdened with the huge frame, weight etc. for no good reason. This will have a rather short window of (limited) opportunity on the market until something with comparable or better performance but a more appropriate size becomes available.
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Hahaha yeah it’s literally that, they started working on the 12K and thought, hmmmm wait, with just a few adjustments we can just stick in a smaller FoV lens and bring it to the market 
That’s Pimax logic for sure Must make sense in Pimax world but of course this makes no sense at all in the normal world.
I’m not even sure myself anymore if I’m even interested in the 12K. Of course I will read the reviews whenever it will come out and if they’re really good I might get tempted. But my expectations for Pimax products have dropped pretty much to about 0. They just don’t seem to know what they’re even doing, time after time after time.
Then again, to be fair, the 8k-X actually was a pretty decent unit. Not perfect but pretty decent. So who knows…
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Nah, 8KX it NOT decent. It’s flaw. The distortion and IPD can be unbearable.
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Well given how hard it is to make a good wide fov headset it’s not bad. Panasonic tried they failed miserably. The xtal panels are better but the lenses themselves are not better than the 8kx lenses imho. So I don’t think pimax did a bad job there. One can definitely argue it’s not great vr. But given how difficult it is I think the 8kx was not a bad headset
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Interesting to read that and funny how different experiences and opinions can be. I made the plunge and upgraded my XTAL 5K to their newest Refurbished XTAL 8K unit, which is basically now like a XTAL 3. It has the exact same lenses as the XTAL 3 and after my personal experience they are better than the 8KX lenses. So far as I know they are using the same lcd panels like Pimax is using for the 8KX.
Interesting enough with the same panels utilized by VRgineers, the observed PPD is vastly higher compared to the 8KX, somewhat close to the Varjo Aero. The picture quality pretty reminds me of the Aero incl. sharpness. Stereo Overlap is also better and therefore the 3D effect is stronger. I have much more the feeling of presence/being there in the Virtual World with the XTALs in general compared to any other Headset I had in the past.
The funny thing for me is the small size of the XTAL lenses compared to the 8KX lenses but still providing an even wider hFOV (smaller vFOV though).
The only downside and the most issue I have with the XTAL 8K are dust particles on the panels. Due to the variable focus settings and moving parts inside the Headset, the optics and lenses are not completely airtight and over time dust particles are emerging on the display panels. You can resolve that in theory with a air pressure can, blowing air insides an opening into the Headset and getting rid of the dust, but some particles can still stuck on the panels. like in my case. I am currently talking with the support about any other possible solution to that or I really have to return my unit for a refund, as my return window is closing in a couple of days.
It will break nearly my heart if I have to send my unit back, as the XTAL 8K is my dream Headset I was looking for so long now! If anybody else has some ideas on how I can get rid of the last dust particles stuck on the right panel, please let me know, thanks!
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Wow that’s really interesting to read. About the panels, the XTAL 3 has different panels than the 8k-X, I’m 100% sure of that. For one the colors are much better but, even much more importantly, the fill factor is incredibly good. I don’t see any SDE at all on my XTAL 3, whereas on my 8k-X it’s very easy to spot and it disturbs me.
Now regarding the lenses, where my XTAL 3 lenses are better than the 8k-X is that there’s no distortion, indeed the stereo overlap is better and sharpness near the edges is better. However the big problem I have with my XTAL 3 lenses is that there’s blurriness in a certain part of the lenses, it’s pretty much a circle around the lenses pretty much at 50% between the edge and the center, so in a very important part of the lens. I’m still not sure if this is an issue with my particular headset or not. One explanation that VRengineer have given is that the projection distance for their wide FoV lenses is WAY shorter than regular VR lenses so that the virtual image you’re looking at is pretty close to your eyes. I know I have a slight issue reading stuff very closeby. For example I need to hold my phone about 40 cm from my eyes in order to read sharply. If it’s closer by it becomes blurry. I know when I was younger this was probably about 20 cm. So, MAYBE that’s the problem, not sure. How is that in your case, can you do a quick test, move your phone (or a book) close to your eyes and measure the distance at which point the letters are starting to get blurry. If that indeed is way shorter than 40 cm MAYBE that could be the problem. If not, I’m really starting to think about RMA-ing the headset.
Actually, when you look at the lenses from a distance, you can see (in certain light conditions) how the center part is different than the rest of the lenses. It’s right on the outer side of that inner part of the lens where I see the blurriness.
Here’s a photo to explain: You clearly see 2 different parts of the lens, the inner part and the outer part. Now the blurriness I see is pretty much exactly around the outer edges of that inner part, so in a very important part of the FoV
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The reason I haven’t RMA-ed it is because there are very high import fees which I would have to pay AGAIN in my country because of stupid legislation. And, just like you, even though I have this issue I still love my XTAL 3, it’s still the best VR headset I have so I don’t like the idea of being without it for weeks again. Even though I find myself using my Quest 3 more and more, mostly because of the ease of use, and I love the pancake lenses and the edge to edge clarity, the whole experience on the XTAL 3 is of course way better and it indeed would hurt me to be weeks without it.
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Really different panels? Some time a go somebody mentioned here that they are using the same panels for the XTAL 3 as pimax used for the 8KX. Strange with the colors, as they pretty much reminded me of the 8KX. I may will ask them about that and then we all know the truth 
As for the lenses and the sharpness: For me personally it starts with a very blurry image and then while approaching the center gets very sharp and stays like this until nearly the end of the FOV but yes I also perceiving the losing of the sharpness to the edge of the FOV and some very small distortions. The sharpness stays the same no matter the focus settings, at least for my eyes ( I am 26 by the way and can see sharp and read everything starting around 15 cm distance to my eyes).
In your case and after my experience with the same lenses I would suggest to RMA your XTAL 3 unit.
Maybe VRgineers can somehow pay the import taxes and fees again for you or something similar to that. After my now very long journey and experience with them I am 100% sure they will be a solution for you!
So as in my case I will return my 8K unit to them and will again pay around 2.5K € for a brand new XTAL 3 unit, so that I will never ever have to deal with this dust particle thingy again! With this I will then spent WAY to much I originally planned for just the XTAL 5K but for me the support and the nice people over there is just worth it. I am only worried about the very short focal distance you mentioned many times to me, but in worst case I can return it back to them again for a full refund, as you can really trust them! Maybe my eyes are just made for the XTAL lenses and I will not have any problem at all with the XTAL 3. Now I know nearly anything about the XTALs and + their possible issues and I think the same applies to you too now yeah I also have now the same feelings to the XTALs like you, as I will miss the time without one until I get the XTAL 3.
Feel free to keep me updated about your journey with your XTAL 3 (maybe in another completely new thread) and I will also keep you updated once I got my XTAL 3 unit ( possibly in 1-2 weeks) about my impressions.
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Cool. Yeah might RMA it, not sure though, honestly using more and more my Quest 3. It’s just so awesome to just flip it on your head and it works, wireless, no hassle at all. Then again, IF the XTAL image lenses could be improved then that’s definitely going to yield an extremely nice experience, so probably should do it either way lol. Just a bit afraid that in the end the problem is just the short focal distance that my eyes have a problem with, instead of the headset … So it’s a bit of a gamble
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I wouldn’t compare these 2 particular companies as I would hazard a guess a fair number of pre orders for apple Vision Pro are businesses as we know unless Apple changed things that the AVP is not targeting gamers.
Steam Survey is not a great metric overal. But we don’t really have much else to go on. Pimax has alot of fragmenting with no real clear direction. Maybe at some point pimax will get better focus planning. You said it even that Crystal is more a sim headset and that does hold a lot of Truth.
There are a lot of early headsets that identified themselves as dk1 or 2. Iirc the π4k identified itself as a dk1 or dk2 for example.
Really difficult to say how many they have sold overall. Internal sales in China might not show up too well on Steam Survey.
I also do not see Crystal or Varjo’s hi end enterprise headsets or even more expensive Xtal headsets likely to make much impact on Steam Survey.
That was more of a proof of concept with the fused displays and optics. For what it was Ben was impressed. It even had a decent form factor. Just no where near ready beyond a proof of concept. But one could say maybe inspired Hypervision pancake fusion.
We could say Quest 2/3 are not true PCVR headsets without Display Port, but that does not stop them dominating the SHS.
To be fair to Pimax BSB does not appear on the SHS either even though I would guess it outsells Crystal 4:1 if not more.
It’s a shame Pimax were scared to show the 12k prototype at CES as it leaves people with no confidence in their ability to deliver in 2024.
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There are several reasons for CN govt. to react. Steam is a SpyWare, it is well known, they collaborate seamlessly with the “services” so not to endanger own citizens during pre-wartime. Do not forget, US reps announced several times the war between US and China will start 2025. Regarding those statetments, here in Germany, we have official TV interviews online.
So, what do you expect? Steam Survey cannot cover CN market any more.
For Varjo: its professional, not consumer hardware, regardless what they tell.
One need other statisitics…
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Yep, it is called “De-Coupling”.
And for Chinese Citizen Data you have to follow Chinese Cyber Security Law and other regulations. If you show Chinese statistics, you show you have exported Chinese data. Then it depends on…
We will see more of those localized cloud services, platforms and stores due to multipolar world.
Maybe Pimax Client will go a similar pathway in Europe, if that market is worth it for them. (I doubt it)
Which makes me wonder, how the Chinese Market takes PIMAX and how the true sales statistics are.
I only can hope, they have a somewhat strong local consumer market position.
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