Varjo Aero sounds promising

Well, the 3D effect is the same, of course - stereoscopy just ends earlier, along with the entire image - past that point the brain fills in with… let’s call it extrapolation for lack of a better word deciding to spring at me, and.other 3D cues :7

…but I personally find the binocular discrepancy of… hmm… “the inner fov terminator” quite painful to see, and impossible to disregard, even with headsets where the view fades toward the edges (fading focus and/or brightness) instead of ending in an abrupt edge, and even with my old Vive, which had the best overlap among headsets I’ve owned – it really “boxes in” the view – other users may experience things differently.

About the narrow vertical FOV, by the way: I do notice that the view is dipped down 3.25 degrees for the Aero, which seems to me a reasonable way to balance the limitation: We tend to look at thing below eye-height more than things above, and in my personal case, my neanderthal brow has so far been the limiting factor on upwards FOV, specifically, more than any HMD. :7

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just 70 stereo overlap are you sure?thats bad af meaning much less 3D effect trought the scene,vive pro 2 was crucified by reviewers because of that and the low vertical fov wich was actually 92 so not bad at all.

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I’m curious how many Aero owners there are who are not flight sim guys?

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To be fair on that front, some of them were using stock padding and the VP2’s FoV is, like the original Vive and Pro, massively improved with third party thinner padding. Without those the FoV definitely doesn’t feel like how it hyped up the advertising.

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Hey @Djonko Can I send you one of our Varjo kits to try out? Have lot’s of flight simmers buying these for extended use

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yeah the stock foam for some reason was very thick,i had the vp2 and i got 115 and 92 fov with a 6mm foam i remember,it was very decent i returned it due to horror vertical lines kinda like vertcial severe SDE with head movement.

Sure mate, sounds great!! Still same address here :slight_smile: Love your straps and been recommending them to everybody!

Hi!

My experience with the aero is not as good as yours at any point. The pincushion aberration, the petzvel blur and all the chromatic aberrations are more than subtle. The eyebox is small (as nearly all the other headsets around) but the sweet spot is not good. The chromatic aberration starts at just some degrees from the center, closer than on other headsets.

I’ve been using g2 for a daily basis (omnicept and normal) with my custom facial interface and the FOV is noticeable smaller too.

Tomorrow we will publish our review at Real o virtual (Spanish) with all the the data and measures to hold our opinions. (4 different people with different IPDs)

It’s amazing (and weird) how different the experience is inside VR between users. :wink:

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Blur and chromatic abberations I’ve never noticed. Not saying it’s not there, I’ve read more reports from people about them, but I’ve never noticed it myself on the Aero. Maybe I’m just not sensitive to that (although blur I hate when I see it, so it’s a bit weird)

I do think yours is the very first report out there that’s saying that the sweet spot is not good on the Aero though.

It’s interesting indeed how we perceive things differently.

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This is why I keep probing and asking questions about the Aero. Particularly around why proponents of it claim it has a wider “perceived” FOV even to the point of claiming that its FOV is much better than other headsets which actually have a much larger real FOV by measurement.

Is it psychological? Is it differences in what we value most in our perceptions? Is it differences in use cases?

Different people can literally physically experience something very different with the same VR headset due to how facial shape, IPD, etc changes the geometry. Like I see claims that the 8KX is a blurry mess over most of its very wide FOV, but that’s not what I experience with mine. I have a sharp image over most of it’s FOV only getting blurry and slightly distorted at the extreme edges. For me, the narrow FOV of the Aero would be a huge downgrade. But for other people who have a different experience in other headsets, that might not be true.

And then there’s differences in what aberrations bother you and which don’t. For example, people complain about god rays on the Index. I’m able to see them, but I’m hardly bothered by them at all. They literally disappear from my perception unless I make a point of noticing them. I think this is the case for chromatic aberrations and distortions on the Aero. They’re likely always present, but some people are bothered and some people are not. And when they’re not, they tend to vanish from perception entirely.

In my case, I know I’m very sensitive to chromatic aberration as I even explicitly choose CR-39 over polycarbonate for my glasses because I couldn’t stand it. So that’s another reason I’m unlikely to appreciate the Aero.

And then there’s use cases. My impression is that Aero proponents are nearly 100% flight sim guys. The things said about the Aero having a larger “perceived” FOV would seem to apply strongly to flight sims. You’re trying to see small distant objects and tiny knobs, so FOV that is present but not sharp may be of little more use than no FOV. You may not notice the lack of real FOV in the Aero very much because the use case places little demand on that part of your perception.

By contrast, I’ve been playing a lot of After the Fall lately. In this game, your team is frequently engaging one zombie horde only to be flanked by zombies coming from some other random direction. I have a distinct and noticeable advantage in this game over my friends’ Index headsets due to the wide FOV of my 8KX. I naturally fall into the role of overwatch for the team because I can spot and nail flanking zombies faster than anyone and call out warnings. Wide “perceived” FOV obviously wouldn’t help at all in this use case.

All that said, I really wish I could try out an Aero for myself. All that I know about it is only what I’ve seen in YouTube videos and other people’s impressions and comments. It all leads me to believe that I would not keep the Aero if I bought it, and so I can’t justify purchasing something I fully expect to return. And yet maybe its clarity really is so magical that it would change my mind about everything else just like Aero proponents say.

I’m in VR a lot. I can justify having the best gear available on the consumer market. That was an Index with FBT. Recently I’ve upgraded to the 8KX (still with FBT). I keep looking at the Aero. But my VR usage is much more varied. I do a bit of flight sim, but mostly I’m in VRChat or playing games like After the Fall. The Aero’s strength (clarity) and weaknesses (narrow FOV and lack of audio) just don’t seem like a good fit for me.

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Good post and i understand your reasoning, just wanna make a couple of points.

The fov isn’t as big a drawback as it is on paper because nearly the whole fov is clear, it has near edge to edge clarity, other hmds don’t.

The no audio is easy solveable, most of the feedback ive read doesn’t mention the audio as being a particular problem. For my aero i’ll be using my existing earbuds or may be getting these :

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Updated-Version-Headphones-Install-Remove-Not-Black/dp/B08TVM4FWR/

So I’ve heard, and this is the particular claim I’ve really been interested in digging into. In part because defense of the Aero’s narrow FOV sounds like justification of an expensive purchase.

I’ve met too many people who are convinced that their car is faster than it really is. Or people who believe quite firmly that their exotic lenses produce better photos than Canon and Nikon lenses due to some apparently completely unmeasurable quality even though all the hard data says no. And in those examples, I’m convinced that their impressions are psychologically driven.

For the Aero, I don’t think it’s purely psychological, but I strongly suspect that this is a factor tilting things at least a little. And in any case, I think that a lot of people who hear the arguments will think so.

The thing I notice in arguments about the Aero’s FOV (besides how unfriendly they tend to get) is statements from Aero proponents that suggest to me that they don’t value FOV very much in the first place. Their use case (which seems to always be flight sims) and/or perception don’t seem to have much demand for it.

Earlier commentary from Aero proponents said you just don’t mind the narrow FOV. The clarity is so good you don’t notice it. The notion about edge to edge sharpness making its FOV effectively larger has appeared and become pervasive only more recently. I don’t find that claim very compelling. I don’t think it’s entirely without merit. I think there’s a real effect there, but it seems like just a kernel of truth to me and not really the whole story.

I’ve read about studies that were done on whether people valued clarity or FOV more. And the answer was FOV winning out for most people. But that’s only most people. I think the Aero represents the portion of the population that greatly value clarity over FOV finally getting their VR headset.

I think that’s the real core of what’s going on. The set of tradeoffs the Aero has made is appealing to only a narrow market segment, but it is VERY compelling to that segment.

I don’t agree at all. Every method of adding your own audio to a VR headset has substantial drawbacks in terms of usability, convenience, quality, and/or comfort. The notion that prosumers will prefer to add their own audio is imported from other industries and does not apply to VR. It can be done, but it kind of sucks. Especially for the microphone which as far as I know, the Aero is unique among consumer VR headsets in omitting the microphone as well.

There is a portion of the audience who will prefer to add their own audio (headphones, earbuds) despite the practical issues and who also don’t care much about microphones anyway, but I believe this is the minority. The choice to not include any built-in audio whatsoever slices the Aero’s audience even smaller.

You don’t hear much feedback from people who have bought the Aero complaining about the lack of audio because it’s easy to understand this limitation before purchasing it. People who won’t be satisfied simply won’t buy it in the first place.

What gets me is that omitting audio wasn’t a necessary tradeoff for Varjo to make. The clarity vs FOV thing isn’t avoidable with current technology. But there’s no technical reason the Aero couldn’t have mounted an audio system. At least a microphone! I see that as a poor decision on Varjo’s part that narrows the potential market for their product substantially without good cause.

The majority of the potential market for the Aero currently uses the Index. I think Thrillseeker really hit it on the head when he described the Aero as a hard sell to most Index users when it’s going backwards in both audio and FOV. The Aero has roughly 55% of the total FOV area that the Index has, and you go from the best audio on the market to no audio. That double whammy is hard to swallow as part of an “upgrade”.

If Varjo were to license and offer the Index’s audio solution like the Reverb G2 did, I think that would be enough to get me to buy one and at least try it to see whether I can live with the FOV. I am fascinated with the idea of its high clarity, and I want to see what this is like. Despite all that I’ve said on the subject, I’m open to the possibility that actually trying out an Aero will change my mind. But man, losing the audio, too? That really sucks.

And I think a lot of people, maybe even most people, will feel the same way about this that I do. And that leads to the market for the Aero being very small, but very dedicated. Even more so than for Pimax.

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Well, I am certainly one of those saying the sort of things you mention:

My paltry 109 degree Index gives me a much, much better “FOV experience” than my 160 degree 8kX, and p5k+ before it, because the view is in decent focus for almost all of its 96-ish degree per-eye FOV; All “useful” FOV, whereas the latter two devices both give me a tiny pinprick of sharp imagery at the very centre, and immediately from that point outwards, things rapidly blurs, progressively, turning utterly irresolveable way, way, way before 48 degrees from center – there is certainly likely to be a lot of psychological biases at play, in whether or not a moderate amount of in-focus FOV is preferrable to a larger amount of “can’t-tell-what-anything-is-but-nice-for-context-and-fuzzy-spatial-awareness” FOV. (To save us an unnecessary follow-up: Let me reassure you that I have experimented extensively with finding the sweet spots of the individual lenses).

I have experimented with various supplementary correctional lenses (even though I do not need glasses to see in the real world, at the range which is claimed to be the virtual focal plane of the p8k/5k range), and even chosen to take my 8kX apart to modify it (waving goodbye to warrantly and upgrade eligibility), by experimenting with different diopters and lower-than-factory-minimum lens spacing (my far IPD is 59-to-60-ish), after assurances from a small number of (EDIT: …local to this forum…) people (some that I am well inclined to trust, and some which were simply rather… “militant” about the matter), who made the same sharp-over-FOV claim about the 8kX as you.

I do not know what may differ between my eyes, and those of these others, but have to make the observation that at least two of them have mentioned seriously advanced presbyopia, to the point they have talked about substituting, or having already done it, their calcifying eye lenses with artificial implants.

The p12k will finally have all new lenses, after the 8k/5k variants have stuck with the same over many models, despite plently of complaints, and who knows - maybe they could give better results for those of us for whom the older lenses couldn’t, but they are likely going to be tailored to the same lens designer, and their set of eyes, as the old ones, and consequently líkely to inherit many of the same sort of properties…

I’ll take the time to repeat my suggestion, that in the lead-up to p12k release, maybe Pimax should consider bodging together a simple “viewmaster” type device out of cardboard and one or two of the lenses that will go into the p12k, so that prospective customers could try how those lenses work for them personally, at as little cost as possible – several people who live in the same region could buy one together, and mail it between them.
(Not that this one user is about to purchase any HMD, or computer component to supply it, at the sort of prices these tend to go by these days on the consumer high end – not far above $1000 is my pain threshold – I might still have traded in the 8kX, which I can not use anyway, even with the $1000-busting between-sum, but I scuttled that ship. :P)

subjective af proly due to ipd difference but i tried the index sbs to the 8kx long ago,it was no difference in sweet spot at all in fact 8kx was much better due to higher res anyway the fov difference was drastic huge upgrade,look 60 degrees to the left without moving your head is that so cristal clear to you in real life?i need big fov for motion perception not 4k clarity i cant even see in real life,but i find it very hard to believe nobody notices the low black border at 72 vertical fov,it will feel like looking at a window or a zoomed out vorpx profile instead of feeling like being inside the world no matter how clear edge to edge is wich it might be but instead of blur its distortion so not much of a huge trade off,but even then that lower and upper black edge aint going anywhere,for 2400 euro you get almost the smallest fov that you can have,lowest stereo overlap proly distortions that for those that arent exclusively simming is severe enough from what i saw on discord and no audio all for just 35 PPD sharpness that will be common very soon.

Happy for you, and more than a little jealous that you get a sharp view over FOV in the 8k/5k:s… Really wish I knew exactly why I don’t (…and I get this only with the wide pimaxes - none of the other headsets I’ve owned).

Were your vision in them like mine, I am not so sure your assessment would be quite the same – I am not talking crystal clear 60 degrees out here - I am talking not being able to resolve fairly large text, nor sharp edges – an underwhelming optics train (EDIT: …into which I include the user’s eyes) completely wasting that 4k screen resolution – and consequently losing a significant degree of depth perception; And this is not 60 degrees out - you can just about chuck the zero off that number.

The fundamental matter has nothing to do with IPD, though - this is closing one eye and seeking out the spot that gives the best achievable result with a single lens - optically.

…but when I do open both eyes, the matter is exacerbated by an order of magnitude, due to the canting of the lenses, which separates the tiny sharp pinpoints (…and not helped by my short IPD (…and moving the lenses together to compensate, takes you out of the sweet spots of both lenses)). Canting the lenses is perfectly fine, as long as the sharp part of the FOV is large enough, but if it isn’t, it is one-eye-sharp-the-other-blurry galore.

For clarity, it needs to be understood that when I say: “sweet spot”, I refer to the location within the eyebox where one’s pupil needs to be (relative to the lens) for the best result - optically and projection-verity wise; Never the size of the portion of the FOV that appears sharp – the latter is a function of the former, and through misunderstandings, the term has unfortunately become plastered onto the latter as well, in widespread parlance, causing endless miscommunications.

The sweet spot of the Index in this sense is absolutely minuscle; Hit it, and the whole FOV is pretty damn focussed almost all the way to the edges of the FOV, nothing is warped, there are barely any chromatic abberrations, and fresnel lens artefacts are the lowest they can get in that headset; Be the slightest bit off, though, and any and all of the mentioned will manifest.

About motion perception, as well as spatial awareness, I maintain an old observation of mine, that it is the 170-210 degree range that is by far going to do the most for that – it’s almost like I could just about give or take the difference between “normal” (140°) and “large” (160°) FOV options in PiTool settings.

I take it the rest of your post is not in response to me, but commenting on the discussion at large - no disagreements from me, on the opinions expressed there.

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its ipd for sure if you have low ipd proly you cant use a pimax,i loose no sharpness if i go to 67 or 60 ipd and both eyes get the same sharpness,there is no difference to me for some reason and i have a very large sweet spot on mine,i dont say its clear over the entire 140 fov if i look to the side yeah its blurry but where it is other headsets have nothing going on lol just non existence,as for perception i love how i can notice enemies in my periphery im top of the scoreboard in pavlov most of the rounds proly due to that huge advantage,if i notice movement i know where to look unlike a idk 90 fov user,or in blade and sorcery in fact in any game i feel like im inside the world not looking trough a window into the world but its subjective af and also everyone has preferences,but i do believe the varjo is way too overhyped for what it is and people saying fov does not matter anymore because its just clear are mostly simmers that look straight ahead into the far distance and only that.

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Tbf I think users of any particular hmd can get unfriendly, its not limited to Varjo.
I value fov and i’m waiting for delivery of an Aero. I think I value high clarity above high fov (will soon see). But I know going from previous experience of hmd’s that I get a real kick out of a crisp, clear image, where objects near and far are detailed and sharp.
I use 1 flight sim, MSFS, and play on other games more than MSFS.

Yeh I understand this point most of all, it wouldn’t have been hard for Varjo to include audio, even just a mic, but for some reason they didn’t. But personally I really don’t mind; I would rather it did include audio but I have several headphones at home and may buy those clip ons.

Yeh Varjo will be even more niche than Pimax, especially at the price. I could’ve ordered within seconds of the announcement of the aero in october but held off until early december because when it came out i was very negative about the high price and lack of audio but then the appeal of its clarity just grew on me and I gave in.

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I do feel MRTV overhyped it somewhat, at least in his first video. But I think most users are quite realistic about it. The Varjo’s are in no way a holy grail, they come with downsides like every other headset out there. And some might be difficult to swallow, depending on how much weight you give to them. Sure, the smaller FoV might not feel THAT bad but it’s still a downside and depending on your preferences it actually might be a huge down side.

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You summed the situation up really well.

Why don’t you just order one and send it back if you don’t like it?

As for why no audio and mic: Varjo literally just took apart a VR-3, removed the handtracking and focus displays and put it back together with a new faceplate. They probably weren’t convinced that a B2C HMD at that pricepoint would generate enough sales to justify some R&D and re-tooling as well as possibly having less synergies with their VR/XR-3 production lines.

They might change that and develop the Aero into a B2C specific product but I guess that will depend on the commercial success of this gen’s HMD.

As for the reduction in FOV, there is no two ways about it, you will definitely notice it. Full stop.

What people are describing is a process where you put on the HMD, notice the increased clarity and reduced FOV, then continue using it for a couple of days and noticing in the process that you will continue to preceive the increased clarity but lesser so the reduced FOV. When you then do an A/B comparison to a previous HMD, you are absolutely gobsmacked by the apparent lack visual fidelity, so much so that most wouldn’t be happy with getting back more FOV but at the cost of decreased clarity. This is definitely a subjective process that varies from individual to individual just as much as perception as a whole does.

A high FOV with Aero clarity continues to be the elusive goal.

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I am a shooter player with the varjo aero :=)

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