Tech Talk #22 : Pimax Crystal

This does actually pose quite a threat to the Crystal I would say. Obviously the 12K is totally fine. I do wonder if the meganex will tether to a phone to watch movies and such, that would be a nice addition.

Also, seems like they must have dropped their intentions on adding in their own controllers. Afaik that has been the major delay this whole time, so I guess they just gave up. Especially because it no longer has those drop down parts which I think were originally for controller tracking (I think magnetic like the pico neo 2).

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I will say the tracker looks very slapped on and not elegant at all but if it sits on well and doesn’t add much weight then I don’t have any issue with it.

Just wish I hadn’t backed arpara on kickstarter lol.

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not sure why there is that kind of hype now, its not new
Jan. 2021

Jan. 2022

(and still no release date, just another prototype - and who does not remember the wide fov prototype from 2017? - anywhere to be seen?)
also when taking Kopin’s reference specs its just 95° FOV - well, who in this forum would want such a small fov when 120° hor. is considered small

and even if they improved it, from the hardware design does not look like it would would be able to come near 120° hor. fov

also when taking needed lighthouse and index controllers into the equation … 900€ + 300€ + 300€ its not impressive at all for just a “gamer” headset, imho meta might have more success with its quest pro as it would at least offer some geeky software for meeting in a business environment
gamer that are new to vr are more likely to end with a pico 4 or a quest 2, way cheaper

i dont think its any harm to the crystal, more geared for business as the quest pro

What would be the best ways to get setup to purchase the Crystal when its’ first release or it just the luck of the draw?

Who gets first dibs, original kickstarters, previous customers, anyone know?

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Interestingly, if you move the dots above the Pimax logo it looks like a smile, right?

I think people are excited because of the comfort/form factor, high resolution and PPD, OLED colours and HDR.

Yes, it’s very different from a pimax headset and the FOV sucks but it’s still appealing in its own strengths and the price is much more affordable for many here that are already in the lighthouse ecosystem. Personally I won’t be getting it but I can understand why some would be excited.

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I would love to see
DCS World (and more MSFS @SweViver )
as stated before by @lolof. For me to see how the clarity on the gauges and distant objects improved to the 8K X.
Also I would love to see
Alyx
the dark and colors, also maybe again - a shot from the “glove” where you can see the components like back in the days… ( in this thread UnBoxing 8K+ and a mini review )

https://community.openmr.ai/uploads/default/original/3X/d/5/d51f9909974ae6bac3691f2eabc869e6b1c74762.jpeg

And of course, some VR DLSS Games - like Assetto Corsa Competizione, maybe F1 22 (haven’t played that one) and No Mans Sky.
Automobilista 2, Dirt 2 could be interesting, The Walking Dead – Saints and Sinners or After the Fall?
Maybe the not so known Legendary Tales?
Or if possible, @LukeRoss could get some of his mods shown? (Elden Ring, Cyber Punk,… )

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I’d like to see a 3rd party reviews please.
Performance numbers on PC games and sims.
Evaluation of the controllers on Steam games.
Pretty much anything one usually knows before being asked for money.

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The way Tyriel Wood does through the lens videos is probably the best out there. Note how he shows increasingly zoomed video until you can make out the individual pixels. And then compares them both A-B and side by side in the same frame. Really good for actually seeing the real display quality. Would like to see this kind of comparison between the Crystal, 8KX, Aero, and Index.

Most other through the lens videos I’ve seen are full frame and taken with hand held smartphone cameras. And those really won’t show you anything as far as comparison between two VR headsets. Mostly you’re just seeing the limits of the camera, not the headset.

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Not sure if someone posted this before ? Looks like TTL from mobile phone.
We don’t know in game settings but looks nice. The frame rate will raise over time when MS FS goes with more gxf 4xxx series patches

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Yikes 50fps on a 2880x2880 headset. God only knows what the 12k will get. 25fps with a 4090? Anyone with a 3080 like me will be down to 12fps. Lol

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Any for Pimaxes/Swevivers information that bogus 12k video with outdated specs is still there and needs to be removed.

With MSFS, the graphics card is less of a problem. The system and the CPUs, which are still too weak, slow it down there.

In other applications, the 4090 is nice capable of handling a 12k.
This is e.g. Project Cars 2 in high resolution (with PP) at 90Hz (8kx, Normal FOV)

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That maybe so, but Swevivers is using a 5950x processor that goes for £530 in the UK.

What happens when you double the res on a 12k and you’ve already got the top cpu? It means your fps is going to halve.

No, the graphics card can hold the frames as it is not full utilized by the CPU.
In addition, just because your HMD can display e.g. 10 million pixels, you are not forced to display them. 5 million still looks better on this than 5 million on a native 5 million HMD due to the pixel density.

I can tell you specifically about mSFs that the switch from the TiRex (3080 equivalent) to the 4090 only gave 5% more FPS. But the image quality has increased by 200%.
This corresponds to what I was hoping for. Only handling and speculating with fictitious numbers is often far from reality - lol

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That’s not how graphical scaling works. It’s not a 1:1 loss with the pixels you render. Hell, look at the 4090’s scaling at 1440p and 4k. Per places like Hardware Unboxed and using a 5800x3D, noticeably better than a 5950x for gaming, they went from 215FPS average at 1440p to 145FPS at 4k. they gained about +51% reducing the res from 4k, but the pixel count between 1440p and 4k is a 125% increase, approximately 3.7 mill vs 8.3 mill pixels. Things like being CPU bound can muddle things, but the point it is NOT a linear 1:1 increase. Even in cases where you are very GPU bound, like with Cyberpunk, results were around a 75% FPS increase going from 4k>>>1440p. Which is still a hell of a far cry from the 125% resolution bump.

Hell, even looking at Nvidia’s own slides for MSFS(In flatscreen, granted), MSFS is near completely CPU bound at 4k because with DLSS 3.0 the soon to be rebranded as the 4070, which performed worse than the 3090 TI, was doing almost the same FPS as the 4090, despite the 4090 being crazy more powerful in nigh everything else. But as you go to higher res, you’ll become more GPU bound. To reference HUB again, in a case like this they had instances where the CPU bound 4090 was only around +30%~ the 3090 TI at 1440p, but then the gap grew to > 50% at 4k in the same game. Despite the higher res, the stronger GPU disproportionately benefitted. Depending on if something like MSFS is STILL CPU bound or not at a far higher res than even this, the performance may not be as big a penalty as you’d think if the GPU is getting to shoulder more of the work than being bottlenecked by the CPU. MSFS is easily one of the most CPU intensive games we have out right now, and even GPU intensive. I don’t think anyone honestly expects to run MSFS at native FoV/Res of the 12k, but it’d still look a lot better even reducing the FoV significantly, and resolution by proxy, because of the much higher PPD.

I know you’re quick to doompost about Pimax and there’s plenty they do deserve grief for, but wait to see the performance metrics for a claim like that to better test and analyze. There’s a lot which goes into your overall performance beyond ‘moar pixels’.

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Well not really, I just wish Pimax didn’t chase unicorns. The 12k at native resolution needs a unicorn PC. But they’re billing the Reality series as a mainstream headset. Good luck with that. My voice is the same as 100,000 lost sales.

A lot of people were happy with 2160x 2160 for MSFS which you could run on a more mainstream PC. Double that by adding another 2160 x2160 you get the 8kX resolution which is about the same as the Crystal. But most Pimaxians want wide FOV it’s what keeps Pimax in the game.

Pimax have made Crystal and the 12k overly complicated by adding stand-alone features, batteries, etc and whacking the resolution so high when there isn’t an true 8k headset. The 8kX is not a mainstream headset.

When the VR community asks for a headset they either want wide FOV for PC or a stand-alone for FPSs that can run high fps. The 12k is a waste of money for FPS games when you need a top dollar PC to run it.

Nobody is going to buy a 12k for FPS imo when it needs a PC that less than 1% of PCVR users can afford.
Simmers don’t care about the cable as they’re sat down so bumping the price on Reality series headsets on unnecessary specs which ultimately means less sales for Pimax.

If Pimax released a 8kx v2 with the new lenses and all the niggles taken out their sales would increase 10 fold. But no Pimax are chasing a 12k rainbow when all other manufacturers are waving goodbye lapping up all the sales. Take a look at Pimax on Steam Hardware Survey after 7 years to find out. The 8KX doesn’t even register.

If Pimax don’t care about sales volumes then good for them, keep going. But don’t panic when another manufacturer slips in with a no frills, high res, affordable alternative.

In the mean time keep telling me I’m wrong.

if the earth is hit by a large meteor, the effort was just as futile. xD

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They said they were going to release in China first. Whether that means even before KSers you.d have to ask for clarification, gl. Frankly debugging at home first may be a good idea. They aren’t on schedule which suggests they are not quite there yet. This assuming they can get the feedback they need to present their best.

The down side is that they miss all the good early advice they have gotten here over the years…even if it has often taken them a while to realize it. :smiley:

This Sweviver is a weasel !! :rofl:

Funny joke, yes, you do. You are probably the most negative voice on the whole forum with respect to Pimax. Where the hell you getting this idea it’s being billed as a ‘mainstream’ headset like it’s the Q2 or something? It’s an extremely high end, enthusiast tier headset which is meant to be what attracts a certain crowd of people, people who’re gonna be more likely to be the ones who have those super strong PCs anyway. This isn’t a 500 dollar headset and it’s not being marketed as such, it’s a 2400 one. Hell, to make another comparison, remember when 4k monitors were first starting to come out? At the time, trying to run them at native resolution was a pretty stupid idea for the vast majority of people and even high end stuff got poor performance, but some people still wanted them and got more use out of them as parts for more powerful. Same situation here, the 12k isn’t supposed to be an ultra mainstream headset they expect everyone to get, that’s a silly idea. Even with the trade in program, it’s still going to be well over 1000USD for most. That’s not chump change. You think Nvidia expects everyone to buy a 4090 with how they’re advertising it? No, they don’t, but they know there’s a market for it. Going by your logic, those kind of products shouldn’t even exist because they’re not mainstream.

Besides, you’re acting like every game is gonna be MSFS demanding, which is ridiculous. And even then, I’ve seen videos of somebody running it on normal FoV with largely high settings without DLSS, though with foveated rendering IIRC, at around 60~ FPS. Considering standard practice from a lot of simmers has been to use motion smoothing when at low FPS due to the slower paced nature of stuff like MSFS, that’s pretty good. And hell, in some games with the 4090 I have had legitimate headroom at maxed settings at 90hz on my 8k X at large FoV, without using FSR or FFR at that. Anyone who knows anything about this stuff should not be expecting to run the 12k at 100% maxed out settings in all but the simplest games, but even running at native resolution and medium/high setting, you’re still very liable to get a much better experience than running a lower res headset due to the raw resolution bump.

I think you’re vastly overestimating things. By your own admission, the 8k X is still quite a niche headset. Making another version with slightly better screens won’t suddenly change that, even if it’s priced at around 1000USD, there’s far more to selling than raw specs and Pimax does have a marketing/public image problem. There’s more to having the SoC on the 12k than just standalone support too, the compute functions it does are essential to the function of the headset with things like the foveated transport to help with bandwidth. You can’t just remove that and keep all else the same. Who do you think the 12k is even going to be competing with at that price point? The people who’re looking at 1000 dollar headsets, and some who might even look at 1500 dollar headsets, are not the target audience for this, especially when discounting the trade in program. And any headset which does come in at a much lower price point is, obviously, going to end up compromising a fair bit on features. Especially when it comes to FoV, because, unfortunately, there is not a single other company who’s even bothering to invest in truly wide FoV on the consumer sphere than Pimax. I don’t feel like buying an 8000 dollar XTAL just to have another option. I can’t buy an 8000 dollar XTAL.

I will, because you are. You’re looking at the 12k and wondering why it should exist when cheaper headsets are out, but completely ignoring those headsets do much different things. Just to compare to the 8k X and something like the reverb G2. You want only clarity and that’s all you care about? Alright, yeah, sure. The G2’s fine. But if you want more FoV beyond that tiny thing, while also maintaining high clarity, and better tracking? Well, the Index will get you more FoV, but it’ll be a sizable downgrade in clarity. The Vive Pro 2 will get you similar clarity and somewhat wider FoV+tracking, but has its own problems with heat and lenses. The 8k X? It’ll maintain high image quality and significantly wider FoV, but you’ll have to deal with the various issues Pimax has and need to spend a good chunk of time getting it properly set up. But, it provides things over the other option that, for some, may make it very worth the price. It’s not meant to be selling the same volume as something like the G2, which is multiple times cheaper. And who’s to say Pimax won’t release something on the lower end? There’s not a whole lot on the horizon to worry about.

Pimax has plenty of things to give them grief for that we don’t have to start inventing points as some kind of gotcha against them. They suck at keeping to schedules, communication can be spotty at best, and they’ve got issues underdelivering on promises. I fully expect the 12k won’t be everything it’s cracked up to be even, but you’re making a mountain out of nothing.

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