Disclaimer: I have reviewed all the text carefully and all the information that appears in it has already been publicly revealed in the Pimax forum. There is no confidential information that could break the NDA. I can’t give out technical information specific to the M1 that hasn’t been released yet because I’m under the NDA, sorry.
I’ve avoided explaining my solution, so as not to break the NDA, but now that the information is public about my proposed solution, I can now talk freely.
I’m going to answer here every question I’ve been asked on other threads and finally I’m going to put my proposal for a solution to have the best Pimax 8K that can be achieved with current technology, realistically, at a low cost and in an acceptable time.
1.- Questions from SweViver to Neoskynet:
This is the post from SweViver with the questions:
http://community.openmr.ai/t/berlin-backer-meetup/7678/130
I finally took my time to read all your new posts in this thread @Neoskynet.
While I partially agree with you on certain aspects, as the lack of
responses from the tech team lately, and also the many questions about
this meetup not being answered yet, I feel I need to clarify something
for the “audience” in here as well.
We have discussed this in private several times now, but you seem to feel the need of doing it all public.
I understand. You want full transparency, so here we go:
I feel the reason you are doing these updates today, is because Pimax is basically ignoring your requests or demands.
BUT… let me just point out to the audience what you really are requesting in your latest reports “behind the curtains”:
You are repeatingly asking Pimax to completely scratch the
current lens design and start over from the beginning. More than 6
months of work. Back to the beginning. You are asking Pimax team to stop using Fresnel lenses altogether
and have the brilliant idea of using Pimax 4K lenses instead on the 8K.
Mainly because you have done some good old basement lab research that
the 4K aspheric lenses are better and giving the same FOV (which btw is
totally impossible. All you need is common sense to understand that)You, together with basically the whole Spanish testing team have
come to the conclusion that Pimax m1 is useless and a disaster, unless
lenses are completely perfect down to the last peripheral edge degree.
While thousands of backers are holding their breath and waiting for
the 8K final release - you are doing everything you can to add another
6-12 months to the schedule. Which you know is impossible, not only
because of the backers waiting, but also because there are huge
investments made into this project and time is slowly running out.
As I said before, none of us have green lit this product yet. But me,
Sebastian and Thomas are at least reasonable and understand that Pimax
dont have the money or time to start over from the beginning.
I think personally your requests (or may I call them demands?) are not reasonable and not realistic.
The unit needs improvements indeed. But it doesn’t need to be redone from scratch, or to be perfect to satisfy the backers.
Maybe we are just different. I enjoy VR while playing games. You, on
the other hand, seems to be enjoying VR by looking at edge distortion
test charts all day long…
Reply from Neoskynet to SweViver:
SweViver, this is not my proposed solution. You read my proposed solution 4 days ago and gave me a “like it”. Remember? Did you change your mind for some reason?
--------------------------- This is my proposed solution (copied from private tester forum) -------------------------
http://community.openmr.ai/t/comparison-between-the-lenses-and-panels-of-the-pimax-4k-and-8k-versions/7437/24
I have to clarify one thing: I am not saying that aespherical lenses are better than fresnel lenses, nor that fresnel lenses are better than aespherical lenses. Each type of technology has its advantages and disadvantages.
What I’m saying is the current Pimax M1 lenses are really bad, bad, bad (it’s explained in my previous messages).
Image quality is the most important thing about the Pimax 8K and backers expect to see an exceptionally sharp, high-resolution image, much more than the Pimax 4K, with free SDE and free visible pixels. If backers do not receive this image quality, the disappointment and subsequent criticism can be terrible and have disastrous consequences for Pimax company, its investors and for all of us, the testers and backers.
That’s why I’m insisting so much, because I want the Pimax 8K to be an exceptional product that marks the beginning of the second generation of virtual reality and Pimax company can compete directly with Oculus, HTC and the rest.
If better lenses are achieved with fresnel lens technology, then perfect. And if you get them with aespherical lens technology, that’s perfect. And if it is achieved with a hybrid of fresnel and aespherical lenses, then also perfect (for example, aespherical in the central lens and progressively fresnel around, but without a peripheral flat zone that we already know does not work).
However, I repeat again, the best option now is to copy, copy and copy. Now there is probably no time or money for R&D. It is simply a matter of copying the excellent lenses of the Oculus Go and making them much bigger (similar to the StarVR so that everything is a magnification lens and without a useless flat area), with less magnification to cover more screen area and also to move our eyes/eyelashes/glasses away from the lenses and, if possible, make them oval, but this is secondary because of the cost of R&D that would be involved.
The ultimate test is to compare Pimax 8K to Pimax 4K. It is not acceptable for Pimax 8K to look worse than Pimax 4K in terms of resolution, sharpness, SDE and visible pixels. Pimax 8K have two 4K displays and at least 50% better viewing should be possible, using 75%-80% of each display for the clear visible area and the remaining 20-25% for FOV. Even if you have to reduce the horizontal FOV from 170 to 150-140 degrees, it would still be a spectacular FOV, and the image sharpness would still be incredibly good, with no SDE and no visible pixels. I’m convinced that’s what we’ve all been waiting for.
A possible solution in detail that could make Pimax company and that Heliosurge has mentioned (Xunshu, talk with CEO about this, please):
-
Supply two types of interchangeable lenses, one with a large horizontal FOV of 170 (the current lenses) and the other with a horizontal FOV of 140 (the lenses I have explained above, with a sharp visible area of 75-80% of each screen and a peripheral FOV of 20-25%). These lenses would have adapters/holders of various heights, because the 170 lenses need to be closer to the screen and the 140 lenses need to be further away, due to their different magnifications and focal lengths (the 140 FOV lenses need 50% less magnification).
-
Ideally, all of this (the two types of lenses with 170 and 140 FOVs, and the adapters/holders) would be free of charge. But if they cannot be free of charge, their maximum mass-produced cost would have to be between $25 and $50 with shipping included. If Pimax is in financial trouble, backers interested in the new 140-degree FOV lenses could be asked to pay in advance (between $25 and $50 shipping and handling included) to cover the costs of development and mass production.
-
The development of these new 140 FOV lenses would start immediately, several versions would be made to be tested by the testers (us) and when we gave them the green light, they would be manufactured in large quantities. Even if we’re lucky and the Pimax engineers hurry, we might have them for the Pimax 8K shipment. This point is very important, because it is necessary to have the commitment of immediate development by Pimax and the tests to give the green light to the testers.
-
Optionally, additional adapters/holders of various heights could be supplied. In this way, it is not necessary to wear glasses (myopia and presbyopia) and each person would achieve the maximum possible sharpness. At least three to six pairs of adapters/holders, similar to Pimax 4K, would be needed, but much thinner. This is very cheap to manufacture.
-
In addition, Pimax is committed to developing better lenses during the first and second year with different interchangeable horizontal FOVs (170, 160, 150, 140, 130, 120) and selling them at prices between $25 and $50 with shipping included for the users themselves to change them. Each lens can be specialized. For example, 120 FOV lenses would be specialized and ideal for watching movies (for example, they would be aespherical instead of fresnel to avoid God’s rays). The system for attaching to the headset and changing the lenses/holders must be easy, fast and resistant, without tools. The transparent film prevents dust from entering the screen area.
In short: Backers would receive the current 170 FOV lenses, the new 140 FOV lenses, each with its adapters/holders, and in addition 6 pairs of adapters/holders of different heights, and the price would preferably be free of charge, or if this is not possible, between $25 and $50 maximum with shipping included.
It is not acceptable to wait one to two years for better lenses.
As Pimax company was committed to giving a diagonal FOV of 200, which corresponds to a horizontal FOV of 170, this solution would satisfy backers who want that great FOV with today’s lenses (although we already know that these lenses are bad) but would also allow backers who are not happy with 170 lenses to have 140 lenses, and also in the future be able to have even better lenses.
I honestly think it’s a good solution. What do you think, testers and Xunshu?
-------------------------------------------- End of proposed solution ------------------------------------------
SweViver, is this solution message proposed by me 4 days ago true or false?
If it is true, please say it clearly and loudly, so as not to create confusion.
2.- Question from SweViver to Neoskynet:
“You are repeatingly asking Pimax to completely scratch the current lens
design and start over from the beginning. More than 6 months of work.
Back to the beginning.”
Reply from Neoskynet to SweViver:
At first I complained, many weeks ago, when I took the lenses out of the M1s I was doing optical tests, about how bad the lenses in the M1s were and that I would like Pimax to create new and much better ones.
But @Heliosurge insist so much we can’t we couldn’t start from the beginning and delay the delivery of the Pimax 8K to the backers. Heliosurge said 7 days ago: “This is why lens upgrade path is important & a good business decision”.
Here are the links (only for reference, but I’m sorry, they’re from the private testers’ forum and only visible to testers):
http://community.openmr.ai/t/comparison-between-the-lenses-and-panels-of-the-pimax-4k-and-8k-versions/7437/3
http://community.openmr.ai/t/comparison-between-the-lenses-and-panels-of-the-pimax-4k-and-8k-versions/7437/6
Actually, all the merits are Heliosurge’s because he was the one who proposed to create new improved lenses and that we backers pay a little money for them, in private tester forum. At first I resisted the idea, because it would cost 6,000 backers, but then I understood that it was the best option.
http://community.openmr.ai/t/comparison-between-the-lenses-and-panels-of-the-pimax-4k-and-8k-versions/7437/5
Thank you Heliosurge for being so patient with my insistence. I was a little desperate because no one from Pimax paid any attention at all.
And that’s why my proposed solution (based on idea of Heliosurge) preserves the M1 lenses of 170 FOV but asks Pimax to create a new good 140 FOV lens, if possible free of charge, but if not possible, paying between $25 and $50 with shipping included.
If Pimax decides to develop these lenses and can’t deliver them for free, I’m not saying that all backers have to pay between $25 and $50, but only backers who aren’t happy with the bad 170 FOV lenses. I will certainly be one of them, because I know what I’m talking about, and it’s very likely that the rest of the testers will also order additional 140 FOV lenses.
Many backers who read all this will complain, but I ask you to wait for my next message message where I will explain why an additional 140 FOV lens is necessary and so important.
Does everything I’ve explained sound crazy or reasonable?
3.- Questions from SweViver to Neoskynet:
“You are asking Pimax team to stop using Fresnel lenses altogether and
have the brilliant idea of using Pimax 4K lenses instead on the 8K.
Mainly because you have done some good old basement lab research that
the 4K aspheric lenses are better and giving the same FOV (which btw is
totally impossible. All you need is common sense to understand that)”
Wearing the Pimax 4K lenses is a real madness and no one in their right mind would defend that.
The M1 requires a much larger lens diameter than Pimax 4K lenses. They also need to be shaped to fit the holder and the Pimax 4K lenses are circular, similar to those of the Oculus DK2, and would not fit well into the M1. And the aespherical lenses also have chromic aberrations at the edges, the sweet spot is smaller and the weight is much higher. The only advantage I see is that they don’t have god rays/glare. I would only recommend aespherical lenses if they were a hybrid with fresnel, but I think it’s best to leave it in the hands of an optician expert.
If in any of my previous messages it seemed that I suggested using the Pimax 4K lenses, it was because either I didn’t know how to explain myself or you didn’t understand me well. Be that as it may, it’s a misunderstanding because it’s crazy.
Anyway, in my proposal for a solution I think it is very clear that I propose to copy the best lenses on the market today, the lenses of the Oculus Go, and make them bigger. Whoever has an Oculus Go will know what I’m talking about, because they’re incredibly good. Best thing I’ve ever seen. They do not need IPD adjustment to get the sweet spot. I repeat, unbelievable. By the way, the lenses on the Oculus Go are fresnel.
3.- You said: “You, together with basically the whole Spanish testing team have come to
the conclusion that Pimax m1 is useless and a disaster, unless lenses
are completely perfect down to the last peripheral edge degree.”
Reply from Neoskynet to SweViver:
Don’t put us all in the same bag as all Spaniards. We Spanish testers are all very different from each other and we live very far away, three in Barcelona, one in Cadiz and one in Alicante.
In the private testers forum you had a lot of discussions with the Spanish tester @pacotaco because he said that M1s were real trash. Sadly this discussion took place on my “My experiments with lenses” thread and I dirty the whole thread.
http://community.openmr.ai/t/my-experiments-with-lenses/7202/18
pacotaco is one of the calmest, most patient and optimistic people I have ever seen in my life, and you sweviver also have those same characteristics. I couldn’t understand how two such kind people were arguing in such an obsessive way.
I didn’t want to go in there and defend or attack anyone, because it was a pointless argument. They were just two people with different points of view arguing about something who would never come to an agreement. pacotaco is a very tech-savvy user, like many of us here, and when comparing VR Headsets he was very disappointed. Honestly, I think a lot of backers would have done the same thing, so it’s best that Pimax learn from it so it doesn’t happen again. 6,000 angry backers is not very good publicity.
But I would like your discussion with pacotaco not to affect your opinion of the rest of the Spanish testers, or to put us in the same bag, because cdaked, guancho, tristanc and I are not to blame. I speak from the heart and with mutual respect.
Concluding words from Neoskynet:
If a backer is ready with a popcorn packet in hand to see confrontations between testers, he can already give them to the dog, because I’m not going to contribute.
On the contrary, I think that healthy and open dialogue is very healthy, and to talk about our opinions with respect in the most important things.
The testers are united, we are all more or less disappointed in how Pimax has managed the testers program and the development of the Pimax 8K, but we are all rowing to keep the boat from sinking, doing our best.
@SweViver is the one who has worked the hardest of all of us (probably 100 times more), trying games tirelessly and with a healthy and surprising optimism, behind them have been working @VoodooDE as a champion, and @Cdaked too (I have to say that he is a slave driver and made us work tirelessly all Spaniards), @mixedrealityTV’s posts were impressively good, @yanfeng who joined last but not least has tried and made really interesting comments and could compare the Pimax 4K, @Heliosurge because he’s the most tireless message writer and good mediator I know, I Neoskynet contributed what I could with my tests with the image and the lenses, the rest have also intervened a little less but in an interesting way. I think we make a good team. I also want to thank @deletedpimaxrep1 for her efforts to act as an intermediary between Pimax and this bunch of virtual reality freaks and I understand that she has limitations imposed by her job.
I don’t want to take any longer. I’ll focus on writing general virtual reality technical papers in “Shanghai Surprise (Neoskynet Director’s Cuts)”.
http://community.openmr.ai/t/shanghai-surprise-neoskynet-directors-cuts/7699
And I hope Berlin is great and that Pimax will make good decisions to give us the best Pimax 8K that we can get right now.
Here I have given further explanations that may be useful in understanding the proposed solution:
http://community.openmr.ai/t/proposed-solution-for-a-better-pimax-8k-by-neoskynet/7714/83
http://community.openmr.ai/t/proposed-solution-for-a-better-pimax-8k-by-neoskynet/7714/88
http://community.openmr.ai/t/proposed-solution-for-a-better-pimax-8k-by-neoskynet/7714/103
http://community.openmr.ai/t/wish-a-set-of-170-fov-lenses-that-could-use-full-pixels-of-the-panel/6747/11
http://community.openmr.ai/t/proposed-solution-for-a-better-pimax-8k-by-neoskynet/7714/239
------------------------------------------------------------ Updating ----------------------------------------------------------------
My proposed solution for better lenses is just one solution. I do not have the whole truth, and the best thing is to take advantage of the strength and wisdom of the community.
Other fellow backers have proposed other solutions that are equally valid. Let me put them in a nutshell:
Option 1 (suggested by Neo and based on Heliosurge):
- Pimax 8K will be shipped without delay and at no additional cost with the current 170 FOV horizontal (200 diagonal) lenses.
- Pimax is committed to initiating the development and manufacture of additional lenses with 140 horizontal (170 diagonal) FOV, aiming for a 50% increase in perceived sharpness. Pimax will adapt the software to work well with additional lenses (distortions, etc.).
- Pimax will attempt to deliver the lenses with 140 FOV along with the Pimax 8K and 170 FOV lenses at no charge, or a maximum of $25-$50 shipping and handling included. Only people who are interested will buy.
Option 2:
- Pimax 8K will be shipped without delay and at no additional cost with the current FOV 170 horizontal (200 diagonal) lenses.
- Pimax makes no commitment to develop or manufacture additional lenses.
- Users will look to third-party companies for alternatives to obtain lenses and manufacture adapters to enhance the additional lenses.
Option 3:
- Pimax 8K will be shipped without delay and at no additional cost with the current FOV 170 horizontal (200 diagonal) lenses.
- Pimax makes no commitment to develop or manufacture additional lenses.
- Once the backers receive the Pimax 8K, if they’re happy with the current 170 FOV horizontal lenses, they won’t ask for anything else. If they are not happy with their current lenses, they will ask Pimax to develop new lenses.
Option 4:
Send 5k/8k to all backers that dont want to wait or are
happy with the current lens. next send the rest of headsets and produce
more to business. continue to upgrade lens until all testers give green
light, send to the rest of backers. backers have to wait some months and
will only receive probably in 2019
Option 5:
Send 5k/8k in current form to all backers that want to
receive, pimax give option to upgrade to 8k-x , where it will be like
the vive pro. Oled screens, better lens and native resolution. This
headset will be only received in 2020 where better lens and screens will
be cheaper.
Option 6:
Send 5k/8k to all backers that dont want to wait or are
happy with the current lens. Next send the rest of headsets and produce
more to business. produce the controllers and bases, update software
full capacity. At the time everything is finished better and cheaper
lens will be in the market. backers that opt to wait will only receive
in mid/end 2019
Option 7:
Wait till the meetup. See what M2 brings to the table, Start this dialogue all over again.
Option 8:
I want my Pimax 8Ks right now, whatever they are. I’ll settle for anything.
Option 9:
Propose the one you think is best.
---------------------------------------------------------- End of Updating ---------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers,
Neo
