Pimax Crystal - status, updates and fixes (Part 1)

Please don’t forget that there are 2 major factors which will cause more delays:

  • The new Covid waves in China. Almost everyone in the cities will be infected. Their vaccine is not as powerful as Moderna and Pfizer. So a lot of them will have more serious symptoms.
  • Chinese New Year is coming in 1 week. People will stop working and go back to their home town. The production will halt.
    Plus, since Pimax just started a beta test of new headsets, we should wait until the testers report problems then Pimax spends some time to fix them. This will take at least another month or two.
    So I think realistically people can get the headsets from the 2nd quarter of 2023.
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Well, I can’t speak for others. But I do know that if all the features they’ve been touting about aren’t working and proven by the time it’s time to throw down my money, then I won’t be making a purchase.
I will not spend over $1500 for an HMD that doesn’t have several advertised core features not working, to be left with, it’ll be working someday soon.

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I guess it depends on what you want in the headset. For me, auto IPD is a big deal. That means we have to have eye tracking working. I don’t do anything but sims really, so if we don’t get stand alone gaming it won’t matter much to me. For those who do want to play the ‘action games’ I can see how it would be a deal breaker.
Again, from my perspective, even without wireless gaming we’ll be getting a headset that rivals the aero in clarity, provides more FOV, has a built in mic and headset, has pretty good inside out tracking, and comes with controllers.
All for hundreds of dollars less than the Aero.
For hardcore simmers, that’s still a good buy. Now for stand alone gamers, I think the Pico 4 is already a good bet, and a good buy, and a lot less money.
So, there are other options and that’s a good thing. All the VR companies need to remember that and know that consumers don’t get ‘married’ to specific brands any more.

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@rsbell, I have a YouTube channel as well. It’s a work in progress but I’m trying to make it fun and useful to VR simmers. I’ve got a lot of experience writing and reading material, but my video skills are pretty rudimentary. Lots to learn.
Lots of room for improvement.
It’s called Finn does sims.

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I think you are holding them to a benchmark quite different than that many regular (even financially potent, enthusiastic) customers do.

You are effectively saying you are happy to dish out $1,600 plus taxes for a product which at the date of delivery will definitely not meet all of its specs, even if you’d forget the optional face-plates and other add-on modules like the WiGig module, as long as it performs the basic functionality of a PCVR headset. In terms of making the remainder of their marketing pitch & posted specs work, it’s essentially hoping they’ll eventually get there.

I don’t see a larger percentage of customers being content with this. This is definitely not what I expect, even more so as the price is in the prosumer category where I would expect a higher than average quality - and even on regular consumer products my minimum benchmark is that the product complies with its specs.

So when you say it’s ridiculously common - sure, for Pimax, as you correctly only cite Pimax headsets in the context, but not for any other company I bought products from in the past other than start-ups via crowd-funding perhaps.

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But Pimax have provided pictures of assembly lines and stated they have everything they need to ramp up production. There is no shortage of parts to be any excuse for more delays.

There could be a shortage on man power due to the pandemic but ramping up does not suggest this is the case either.

Guess we will hear soon when the first batch is complete and shipped.

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Correct. Varjo just set a date and then started delivering. Actually, they all do. Except Pimax.

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I have to disagree. There always good reasons to delay a release of a product. The issue with timelines in pimax’s case is wording.

Pimax needs to stop setting dates in what the public sees as stone tablets. Projected release dates need to be stated as Estimated. When it is clear internally the projected release will not be fulfilled a company needs to get ahead of it and release an update that there are complications with maybr a new estimate.

Ramping ip production is a good sign. However for example sometimes an unforeseen quality issue is discovered at some point and requires sorting and reworking affected units. If the flaw is big enough it may even require scrapping the entire batch.

I can expand more on this later.

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I’m still waiting for any hopeful signs that the beta testers will get their Crystals shipped out before CNY hits and everyone’s out of office for the week.

Would be nice to get testing underway before February starts.

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HI :innocent::+1:t2::+1:t2:

Very good analysis.

The problem for 20 years in many fields, games, computer equipment, vr headset is that we are sold a pre-order product with release dates that are held or not.
We are sold dreams with virtual objects created on graphic tablets, with technical promises created by engineers.
But then comes the time of reality and when these engineers start building their equipment comes the time of surprises and bad surprises.
I love pimax but it’s true that since 2017, since our orders in backers, we have participated in this global pre-order phenomenon, we expect a dream that always arrives late.
Pimax has always released these high fov headset late.
In 2020 after 10 months of waiting for the postponement of the pimax 8kx I had canceled my order of $1200 and requested a refund.
Since 2020 I have stopped pre-ordering everything, tired of waiting, I buy when it is available and functional!
And again when I see the Meta quest 2 helmet released on October 13, 2020 on the right date of sale, we later discovered that #meta will need updates and updates and updates for functions, bugs be resolved.
We are in a pre-order world!!!
The pimax crystal or the pimax 12k I would pay for it when it will be on sale on amazon.
At the paris roadshow I told josh/et sweviver I wouldn’t pre-order pimax helmets from now on.
I love their high fov headphones, cheaper than Xtal / Varjo which have crazy prices for most gamers, but pimax must stop releasing commercial release dates that are impossible to achieve.
Because that in the end gives them a bad brand image, we see it here on this forum that criticism comes from all sides.
Because basically the pimax crystal was to be on sale in September 2022 and the pimax 12k in December 2022 !!
It’s not the gamers who invented this date but pimax in June 2022.
Since 2020 I no longer get tired of knowing the how and why of this or that brand of games, hardware, computers, when it is on amazon I buy otherwise nothing!

Aplushhss :innocent::+1:t2::+1:t2:

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You mean 12k in Dec 2022 not 2023.

It’s strange the original 12k was announced in October 2021 nearly 15 months ago and we’ve still never seen it. Even 12 months after CES 2022 when Covid got blamed for the 12ks no show. Why no show at CES2023? Reason the 12k got shelved.

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Yes it’s really bad PR how they have not even mentioned the 12k AT ALL.

Beware: the following is a mere speculation.

It appears pretty straight-forward to conclude that they ran into a number of issues of which many probably are related to the even wider FoV than the Vision series offers, and at the same time had probably already contemplated that they’d make a spin-off for regular FoV akin the Artisan headset, which we now know as the Crystal. The idea surely was to adopt as much from the 12K as possible.

Now the issues and resulting delay on the 12K - perhaps knowing that some of the solutions are out of their hands and with suppliers like Tobii, who may have told them that this will take a while before they can supply any fitting components, if at all - will have made them reverse the order of the two products, hence why we see the shift to the Crystal. I interpret Sweviver’s statement of a couple of weeks ago to mean that when the Crystal is done it means that roughly 70% of the components of the 12K are ready too, as they would be re-used without (substantial) changes.

This is the same principle they already applied for the Vision series and had in mind for the Reality series from starters. Hence the bulky size of the Crystal - wouldn’t be needed for the Crystal at all, but the 12K necessitates it and in order to boost synergies size-wise you’ll get a Monster Truck of a headset… (that actually is one of the major gripes I have: it’s 2023, pancake lenses everywhere, and we are asked to pay $1,5k - 2,5k for a shoe-box sized, heavy headset like it’s 2016 again…)

Back to the current state of development: the issue seems to be, that the remaining 30% contain some tough bones to chew on for the Pimax team as they would appear to be the reason for the reversal of the product priorities. The inevitable question is of course how long will it take them to get these resolved satisfactorily, if they don’t even seem to be willing to publicly feature the headset any longer?

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You misread my intention man. I’m not dishing out any money until I can actually buy the thing when bugs are worked out and it will be in my hands in a week.

My point was people should ground their expectations off of what they’ve shown, not what they’ve promised or an optimistic time table. They’ve shown us a lot, it’s just time that’s in question.

I don’t buy pre-orders ever, and I don’t listen to company estimates. Product development like this is a lot like stocks. Until that $$$ is in your bank account and no longer in the Market, you may as well be gambling.

I look at what has been shown working on camera.

@PimaxUSA showed the 12K on a live stream way back a while ago with its different lenses, Etc in prototype form.

The crystal has the same housing as the 12K. They’ve showed Crystal with working full array local dimming. They managed to handle the exchangeable lens design . That means that whatever the covid situation is, I know they are working on it.

The 12K is different by degree, not kind. When the core mechanics of the crystal have been demonstrated, we know that other panels and the same software will be ready for the 12K. It’s just a question of time.

@hammerhead_gal just posted pictures of "some"crystal components ready to be assembled, probably for testers units, that means they are working on it.

I know to ignore it when they give an optimistic date. Anyone who’s been on the forum for any length of time should know to ignore those estimates until you actually see something.

I know however, in spite of dates that are too optimistic, pimax will deliver a working product because they have done it successfully several times.

That knowledge doesn’t mean I’m going to just give them $1,600 right out the gate, or even pay the small pre-order amount they collected.

You should never buy pre-orders even from reputable brands that have been around for a very long time. The era of online shopping has made this even more clear as Sound Advice. Only give people money when you’re sure of what you’re getting.

I hear people freaking out about pimax’s estimates, but not paying attention to what we’ve actually been shown.

Lighthouse tracking module working, exchangeable lenses working, core inside our tracking working, display algorithm for local dimming working.

People are upset about Wireless not being shown, but people are being unrealistic in expectations for wireless.

I understand the value of no tether, but I know for a fact digital compression over Wi-Fi will never be as good as sending the signal through DisplayPort.

If anyone is worried about standalone on this device you’re buying it for the wrong reason. That is a feature by definition that will take time.

They have showed us a lot of the core working aspects of the product, and throngs of people are telling them to work faster, not to do testing groups, to abandon exchangeable lenses, just work on it internally, all the while saying release it when it’s ready, meanwhile they paid pre-orders.

That’s a jumble of conflicting contradictory information, because people simultaneously want it now, want it faster, but want it fully done right. That means time guys. It will take time.

I understand people being upset when they have money in the game, but it’s up to a customer not to buy until a product is ready.

Even reputable companies like meta are increasing their prices, showing prototypes that won’t necessarily become products for years, just to generate the hype Etc because covid put us in an unprecedented situation that have made I guess only a few people cautious with their wallet.

If you’re wondering why there’s delays in the era of covid, you been living under a rock.

Everyone has been acting like this virus isn’t out there anymore still evolving, still killing, and everything should just be able to go back to normal, when the entire global supply chain has been affected not just by covid but by the Ukraine war. Add to that companies seizing on that to raise prices more than is strictly necessary.

Anything having to do with computer manufacturing, or computer like components has been adversely affected in an insane way across Industries.

In my country right now eggs are going for seven bucks for a dozen instead of the usual three because of bird flu requiring culling of millions of animals, Plus covid.

Various people are blaming political blah blah every which way, because they need to feel in control instead of truly considering the impact of a once in a century event. Instead of considering the impact of less actual raw materials to go around. More expensive gas, more expensive shipping, how expensive it is to buy a vehicle Etc.

If you consider what pimax has actually showed us that is in working order, that has been demonstrated to us, the stuff that we haven’t seen comes across as the fluff part of the product.

The Wishful Thinking part of the product. Was it painfully stupid for pimax to promise all that stuff in a marketing hype video way before it was ready? 100%. Does that mean any human being living in the world today should be surprised that stuff isn’t ready? Absolutely not. The one thing you should be 100% prepared for is delays.

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Oupsss error lol

It’s true it’s december 2022 for thé Pimax 12k .

Aplushhss :innocent::+1:t2::+1:t2:

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From my xp and learning about pimax’s structure. The Crystal in part was already being explored. That being said pimax since there very first p1:series(yes plural) have used a shared shell/casing. Designing and making new molds is very expensive.

The 8kX itself was the intended 8k model pimax wanted to release; however it was discovered that at a time prior to launching the KS that a combination of factors regarding tech available that native 4k/eye was not doable. This resulted in the compromised upscaled 8k. Due to community pressure pimax committed to make a limited number(400 units) of prototype 8kX with a ? on when it might release. The 5k itself was a suggestion by the community member @Davobkk whom was apart of a focus group Xunshu organized within the original pimax forum.

Pancake lenses as pimax explained do have issues with light transmission if I have the term correctly. @mmorselli created a topic to get more clarity on the stated 15% on this statement.

I found an article that verified pimax’s statement and actually explained the “15%” statement was generous and maybe lower efficiency. It is a great read as it gives a detailed explanation of pancake lenses design. To which I thanked Mmorselli as I would not have read that very “illuminating” article.

Read his topic here


With the ET from Tobii with the 12k they are collectively working out how to mount the sensors as the lense design is much more complicated. Iirc I read that somewhere in r/pimax; disclosure this was not a statement by a pimax employee but someone that may have close contact with a team member.

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For me, if they’re going to advertise stand-alone as a feature of the headset and even design the headset around support for it. i.e. WiFi6 + Hot-swappable battery etc etc.
THEN. I expect that to be a working functionality at the time of sale.

Yes, I know and never expect that quality to be good as tethered. However stand-alone is another use-case that I’m interested in and buying the headset for.

So, while they may have a solid tethered headset ready to go out the gate, and one certainly could use it JUST FOR THAT without any stand-alone functionality, I personally do not think it will help them to try to sell an incomplete headset based on its intended functionality. A functionality that they’ve been advertising.

Perhaps we’re saying the same thing.

My perception is that people are viewing the same set of facts from different perspectives and desired outcomes.

One group sees the existing feature set as valuable enough on its own to be worth the price of admission.

Then there is the group that sees value in the full feature set, but feels the current unfinished state is either overpriced or too risky to invest in.

Beyond that you have the spectrum of individuals who think the Crystal is broken, bad, or will never even come out at all. :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyways, I think both of the first two perspectives have truth to them, and it comes down to each individual’s personal wants and financial situation.

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Sure, and anyone can spend their money however they like.

Though, just by buying an incomplete product doesn’t automatically equate to some 100% guarantee that the product will have all features working as originally intended and as advertised within some short future amount of time, if at all.

Warning… Speculation and Run-on Sentence Below :crazy_face:
I’ll surmise that for those hard-core enthusiasts and those that have a lot more disposable income to throw around, that putting down the money for an incomplete product that only works in the ways that are the most important to them is more inconsequential as compared to the majority of consumers out there.

I’ll also surmise that a lot of the general consumer base won’t care to understand any justification that may be posited by biased-leaning supporters of the product when in reviews it’s shown that the product is ‘incomplete’.

I am a believer that reputation and trust still matter in the world of business. To that end, it is best for a company not only to provide a quality product (of course) but to also work towards maintaining that image.

In my opinion, releasing and taking the full amount of money from consumers for an incomplete product goes against good business practice and erodes positive reputation and trust. In a competitive landscape, such qualities can make or break sales of the product.

i.e. Why buy Product A (with similar features and cost compared to Product B) from a company that has a history of low reputation and trust when one can get Product B from a company that has a higher track record of those qualities?

I personally do not think that PIMAX will be doing itself any favors if it sells an incomplete product.
I hope this won’t happen.

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@Butters007

I think that could be your best ever post.

As soon as Crystal is released in any sort of numbers you can bet videos will be made on whatever state Crystal is in. Those videos will be there for years, so when a new buyer comes to the VR market and searches for a video on Crystal they will see a unfinished Crystal and an unsatisfied reviewer. That could be enough for them to dismiss Pimax altogether. First impressions count.

But from Pimaxes point of view Crystal is a finished product as far as PCVR goes and there’s nothing to gain from waiting until stand-alone is finished.

On one side the risk is to release an unfinished product and generate negative reviews. On the other side Pimax could delay but for how long? Until Valve release Index 2? Until Meta release a higher res Quest3? Until Varjo announced a Aero 2?

I bet Pimax have had this meeting. I think Pimax are at the point of no return with Crystal and they now have nothing to lose.

Personally I think Crystal is 12 months too late. If it had of been here January last year then six months of ironing the creases would of brought it to maturity before Pico4 arrived. Pico 4 is a stop gap to the next big think either the 12k or Index 2.

Crystal never convinced me to preorder and even now I’m asking myself the question, how much longer will it take before Crystal gets on par with my Pico4? Can I survive with a 4 year old Index that’s SS to 4k per eye and works flawlessly?

It’s a tough call and maybe if Pimax sent me a Tester unit I might grow to love the Crystal. But Pimax have created this artificial expectation that the 12k is so close it’s pointless spending on the Crystal now, if the 12k is only just around the corner. But is it? Does anyone in Pimax even know?

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