Let's have a productive conversation about the 8k/5k+ plastics

Pimax 8K Series
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I am calling on any relevant personnel at Pimax to give the backer community a CLEAR breakdown on the plastics of the 5k+ vs the ruggedized vs the current 8k+ and X.

My understanding is that the current 5K+ is being assembled with what I would call the third iteration of plastics, where all the other aforementioned products are the fourth (or later). Given the amount of RMA’s and general discontent among the community here, it’s clear that Pimax has considered the 5k+ build quality problematic and iterated a newer version to address this and other ergonomic issues.

Given that most of the community is pretty unsatisfied with the current offerings of this convoluted “upgrade” program, one place where we might meet at a middle ground is this build quality issue. I would propose a recall for anyone who wants it to have their gen1 headsets brought to a proper standard. Alternatively, given that many backers here are technically proficient in one domain or another, give the option of mailing us the updated plastics where we can do the work ourselves. If it makes Pimax ownership more comfortable, offer this option with the stipulation of a discontinued warranty. Along with the updated plastics, I think it would be the right thing to give backers the option of the new cowl.

Once the stretch goals arrive, then what backers would have is a headset made to the proper intended standards. The sole divider between the 5k+ 8k and 8k+ would be the displays- which is what I would think Pimax would want. At that point most people can put the relative costs there and there alone. Backers can make better decisions on whether to upgrade or not. It also will help close the book on this kickstarter.

QUESTIONS FOR PIMAX.

  1. Please delineate the difference in plastics between the 5k+/8k vs ruggedized variant and 8k+/x

  2. Has Pimax discontinued the 8k. If so, why?

  3. Will Pimax discontinue the 5k+ or upgrade it

  4. I think the community would very much like a statement- preferably a video- from Robin Weng. I personally want a confirmation that Robin Weng has read this.

@PimaxVR @PimaxUSA @Matthew.Xu @SweViver @Konger

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Bueller? :slight_smile:

@PimaxVR @PimaxUSA @Matthew.Xu @SweViver @Konger

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Hi Ricarrdo,

Thanks for summarizing your questions here, we’ll let Mr. Robin Weng known and answer you later.

B.R.
Konger

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@Konger

Tell to MR Robin Weng to call the (new) Pimax 5K+ 2020 edition

You must cut ties with the past.

This is possible:
Housing improved (no cracking)
New calibration (no distorsion)
New cable (good colours)
120 hz
Updated pitool
(optional)
MAS,
Comfort kit

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Thank you, Konger. We are all very much looking forward to to a resolution with the backer community.

R.

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Obviously this would be a win for backers, but Pimax don’t want to take a huge loss on all the returned headsets. However, it might not be a total loss for them if they’re able to swap the internals into a new housing.

Another huge benefit of this, besides the new housing, would be the ability to run the newly-housed headset through the lens calibration tool, which nearly all backer headsets have never seen.

My headset has never shown signs of cracks (yet), but it’s also hardly been used. I’d be interested in a “body swap” program, even with a nominal fee for parts/labor.

Hopefully @PimaxVR will have their financial people run through a concept of this program.

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Never had a problem with the build quality of the Pimax 5k+.

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I mean- an RMA feels a little more appropriate to me. I think in any other circumstance, a company with this kind of issue would be gearing up for a recall. It seems clear that after a year, these failures are manufacturer related. And on top of that, there will continue to be failures as time ticks on.

But perhaps another way to do this is to use some of the $100 from the KS to rebuild the 5k’s with the new cowl and perhaps whatever cord issues need to be addressed. There are still those issues of mechanical failures of the buttons, IPD dial and audio jack falling into the chassis, but perhaps they are all connected in one way or another to these plastics.

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Nice. what was your serial? I only used mine for seated experiences, handled it very lightly and it developed 3 cracks within 6 days. Was never dropped either. I believe as previously stated there are stress points coming from the inside out that a certain batch of plastics can’t withstand. I also noticed the headset getting very hot which may be the key to the issue.

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Sorry, not sure it is a good idea to share my headset serial number. However, I can tell you that I did preorder it once the site was stable.

Heat is not a problem either. Headset does get slightly warm to the touch at the top near where the display cable connects. Most of the heat I notice inside the headset is metabolic heat from me, while seated.

So I guess maybe some of the headsets have a bad batch of plastic. My own experience with 3D printing has shown how tiny amounts of additives can drastically decrease fracture resistance for essentially the same bulk material.

If the headset itself is at risk of falling apart, you might be able to very carefully epoxy a small amount of carbon fiber fabric on top. Haven’t tried that myself though.

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Sure. Only asked because the serials are coded by date and yours could maybe shed some light on which batches of headsets have the solid cases pimax claims they’ve put out. Most Americans wont be spending money on a product that falls apart in their hands. Especially 700 usd. Even if the parts on the inside are fine. It was their duty to get us a solid headset off the assembly lines so I honestly couldn’t care less if they go under trying to make this right. It would be sad but also their doing. As far as putting bandaids on a 700 dollar product. Why? Why do I have to do this I’d rather return my headset and wait for them to get this right.

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If pimax ever hopes to get out of the tinkerers market and into the mainstream they NEED to fix this asap and not only that, we’ve gotta stop encouraging bandaids to fix things that shouldn’t even be a problem. Sure I could paste some carbon fiber over the cracks but as I already stated after spending 700 bucks your average American will not want to do that. [Sorry for the double post]

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In all probability, this problem is not affecting current headsets. Mine was ordered somewhat early but shipped out rather late due to a shipping issue. I would love to help put a date on the headset, my concern is that publishing the serial, order number, etc, will deprive me of any chance I might have of getting my Pimax 8kX sooner.

Which I am sure will be awesome.

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I understand why that would be compromising for you in this case. What I don’t understand is how this topic is of so low priority to the Pimax team. Perhaps they are wanting to protect trade secrets or perhaps they intend to see how many defective case sales stick. The latter is a such a shady practice that if it’s true will deter me from doing any further business with this company. I’d rather save up for an xtal. Not that far away from one tbh. But I’d rather give my money to Pimax if they can earn it.

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Kickstarter launches of just one technologically superior product can be quite expensive. Following this up with more technologically superior products is even more challenging.

Pimax has been doing extremely well to get things as mostly right as they have.

Mostly right, is how as many of us as possible get our headsets as fast as possible until actually decent resolution headsets are available.

Pimax 8kX has more resolution than the XTAL, and probably fewer of these newer units will have manufacturing defects.

So, either preorder the Pimax 8kX, and repair your current headset, or if you don’t need the resolution, just repair/trade what you have.

While it is unfortunate that you seem to have been unlucky enough to end up with some manufacturing defects, if it were mine, I would definitely fix it myself, with the appropriate practice and preparation of epoxy, carbon fiber, CAD modeling, 3D printing, and eBay parts. I would only bother Pimax about this if I wanted to make sure any warranty or future product preorder would not be jeopardized further in the process.

What I cannot make by myself is the quality displays, lenses, high-speed circuitry, cores, and software, of the Pimax 8kX. I would prefer Pimax focused on getting that in my hands as fast as possible.

EDIT: My thinking here is that an injection molding supplier for Pimax used bad quality plastic for at least one batch, but not all, and has since corrected the problem. Would not surprise me if Pimax started changed suppliers, this has happened to other companies.

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You’ve got a tinkerers mindset as do I. All I’m trying to point out is that catering to tinkerers will shut out the rest of the market. If they can’t get a plastic mixture right or a solid case design, I actually trust their ability to produce the more intricate hardware far less. In fact xtal is perfect example of pimax cutting corners. They use the full resolution of their panels and as a result you get an image very close to the 8kx using less of it’s panel and shoddy lenses. The price is the only reason to go for pimax. Xtal is simply too good to cost less than 7gs and the engineers know it. The 5k plus uses the same resolution with rgb stripes but due to it’s shoddy lenses and poor panel resolution forces us end users to super sample like crazy to get anywhere close.

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Well you did hear Marek was impressed. The Xtal is only 5k while it has better lenses, the headset weighs too much to be a real contender for gaming If memory serves 250g shy of a kilo. It was also reported the Xtal vertical FoV seemed narrow; much like was said about Reverb.

If Xtal could bring down the price & weight it could be serious competition even with lower Res & less refresh rate. If you have followed Xtal one of the reasons for targetting Enterprise is due to manufacturing capabilities. Where we know by demonstration targetting consumer market with having low volume output can be quite difficult to meet consumer demand.

Which is also why when Xtal was considering exploring the idea of consumer version they said maybe seeing about a partner as I recall.

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If they can’t get a plastic mixture right or a solid case design, I actually trust their ability to produce the more intricate hardware far less.

Pimax, in all probability, has nothing to do with the plastic mixture. Injection molding, and even 3D printing, at manufacturing scale, is almost always contracted out to a third-party, for very good reasons. In turn, that third-party buys plastic from yet other third parties, also for very good reasons, which besides major plastics producers, could easily include a poorly run local recycling plant. Not saying Pimax made this mistake, but sometimes new companies start with a bottom quote contractor who doesn’t keep adequate supply chain records, and uses third parties who also don’t keep adequate supply chain records. When that happens, it is impossible to prove which materials were used in specific finished products. In the end, regardless of who is at fault, the volume manufacturer then goes on to charge full price, pocketing the difference.

This scenario makes much more sense when you realize a volume manufacturer can double their profits by doubling the final consumer product defect rate. Just by making 6% of our headsets fail, by using near-free poorly recycled plastic in 3% of products, a volume manufacturer (or anyone else in the supply chain) can make 3% more revenue, on a 3% profit margin, ultimately making 100% more profit.

Because the company today is relatively well staffed with a unique and comprehensive product line, it is likely Pimax has corrected such problems with its third party suppliers.

250g shy of a kilo

More importantly, looking at the XTAL headset, it seems to place a lot of weight relatively far away from the user’s face, significantly increasing inertia. The combination of more weight and worse leverage can be expected to drastically increase the necessary pressure on the user’s face far which is already difficult to tolerate for a few hours.

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I believe the cracking problem with Pimax is more than 3 or 6 %.

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@PimaxVR @PimaxUSA @Matthew.Xu @konger @SweViver

To the Pimax team and Robin Weng- We have waited one week. I have held off asking for an update because I want the Pimax team to know that I am willing to be reasonable. We all understand you are busy trying to sell the improved Pimax units, but there is a very serious conversation that needs to be had with the community. We have breaking and broken headsets, incomplete orders, and funds that are essentially being held captive by Pimax. We must have this conversation and we want Robin Weng to answer directly.

The longer this drags out the more this will appear to the backing community (and indeed the VR community overall) that this company does not intend to deal with people honestly or in good faith. I don’t expect any kind of final say- we are just trying to initiate the conversation. I hope this much is clear. Let’s start by having Pimax at least lay out a few facts based on our questions, then have a discussion about ameliorating this issue. This degree of silence isn’t acceptable to most reasonable people.

How much longer are we expected to wait?

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