Who thinks the 12K’s 35ppd will be outclassed by the time it launches? I think it might.
We already have 35ppd (Aero) and the coming soon Arpara is 32ppd. 12K won’t launch until Q4 22 but most predict 23. Competitors will have new higher ppd versions out by then. The fov will be in a class of its own though of course.
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There might be things which do have higher pixel density, but I think we’re starting to get to a bit of a point of diminishing returns unless we make a serious jump, kind of like how 60hz to 120hz is gonna be noticeable to almost anyone, but then say going from 120 to 240hz will be less so for most cause of diminishing returns. Because optics and fresenel lenses were a major bottleneck for a long of things and that appears to be getting phased out somewhat in favor of aspheric or pancake lenses.
I’ll be a little surprised if anything with even 130-140 degree FoV with 35PPD, or greater, comes out at a sub 1000 price point, heck maybe even 1500, by then. Given how little focus the industry has given to FoV.
However, there’s more to the 12k than just PPD and FoV. It also has up to 200hz, though we don’t know the degree of FoV sacrifice it needs but they’re claiming less because of DFR. And it also has HDR. And it has all the modules for a multitude of things, even if some of those are sold separately.
Yeah, they’ll probably be a handful of things which have similar or even better aspects, but I’ll be real shocked if something comes along that can do even half of what the 12k can below 1500~ or so. And quite a few people have potential to get it for around 1300-2000~ with the trade in program. This is, of course, assuming Pimax delivers and on time. If they do, I think the 12k will still be the only one who’ll be able to claim a completely and truly no compromises headset vs others, who, at least in the 2000 and lower price tier, will still probably be in the same state as now, just better specs. The degree of compromise may or may not lessen though.
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PPD may be outclassed by certain devices but if the 12k is the complete package that it is promised to be then it won’t be outclassed overall for quite some time, but on individual aspects sure and what is important is subjective.
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Yeh i think i’m concentrating on just a couple of aspects of the 12K when in reality its intended to be the full package. I doubt anything for atleast a few years will have so many features. I hope it comes off. Can’t wait to actually see something about it like a demo or a pic.
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We still haven’t seen any other VR headsets even pursuing large FOV. If anything, since the release of the Valve Index, VR headsets have trended toward narrower and narrower FOV instead of wider. The newest VR headset on the market has the highest clarity but also the smallest FOV by a significant margin.
It’s relatively easy to trade away FOV for higher clarity. Any headset could have higher clarity just by squishing down its FOV. And that’s the trend we’re seeing. It’s a lateral move rather than an actual advance.
The real trick is to be able to increase clarity while maintaining or even increasing FOV. And I don’t see any other company besides Pimax even attempting to do that. So to me, the 12K is the only real game in town.
I’m hoping the Valve Deckard will go for an FOV increase along with its other advances. I think Valve has understood that FOV is important, and it’s one of the reasons why Index is far and away the best selling high end VR headset. I’m actually a little worried that Deckard will have the same or smaller FOV as the Index (per the industry trend), but will have other really great advances, and it’s going to suck to choose between that and Pimax.
On the other hand, if the 12K releases with inside out tracking only and no basestation tracking support, I will not buy it. I’m worried the trade-in program will be over before they have basestation tracking available. I have zero interest in a high end headset with inferior inside out tracking.
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Relatively easy to have a high density with a very small FOV. Also if the data stream is small wireless is also easier. The technical challenges we had working on the 12k for the last couple of years are indeed difficult but that’s why we are so excited about this device. As a package it really is a couple of generations ahead. It also has features we are not even discussing just yet that set it in it’s own class.
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You’re telling us there’s even more to unveil for the feature set?
I’m curious and wondering what the hell else it can even realistically have when it feels like almost everything and the kitchen sink is already there. But excited to imagine.
I hope there’s a chance some of those things might come up at the livestream you guys have been talking about doing, and that that could come sooner rather than later after what happened with CES.
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Our internal discussions on the subject on what to reveal about it were interesting because we decided to keep some important things out of the presentation for later. It was already a lot to absorb.
The samples have some cool features that people here will really appreciate and may even dominate the conversation when we start doing public demos. People would notice probably after carefully examining the upcoming videos and demos.
We think we would like to do some of the reveals letting guys like MRTV and Thrillseeker etc. to test it on their shows etc. rather than showing these features off ourselves. But eagle eyed people may force our hand before that at least in just discussions.
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Afaik, the index was originally meant to have microOLED screens, so much smaller panels, but they were changed to LCD during design but the same optics were kept. As a result, we got the larger FOV of the Index but it doesn’t seem like it was actually an active design choice but rather a happy possibility later on due to changing the spec.
Abrash, or whatever his name is, did a lot of research at Valve into minimum required FOV for immersion and came to the 80deg number min, or there abouts. Personally, I think the Deckward will at best have similar FOV to the Index (perhaps because that aspect was received quite well) but I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s closer to 95 or so. It does seem like overall people would rather higher clarity and easier to run than large FOV. Thankfully Pimax exists for those of us that do love a larger FOV.
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Still I wonder which graphics card is required to run the 12K at nominal /standard specs. To sacrifice FoV, resolution or frame rate because the gfx card doesn´t deliver would be awful. Which consumer platform (if exists!) will be able to drive it at full speed? And if not consumer, then what is required.
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I think people are sleeping on the vertical fov increase as well, imo this will be a huge immersion amplifier. Lately I seem to be like hyper aware of the boarders around my vision in VR. It feels like I’m looking through a thin slot. Having the top and bottom of my vision cut off is super annoying so seeing those increase will be huge.
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Per @PimaxUSA they can get it close or better than the 8KX in terms of performance requirement…probably due to new tech like foveated transport, etc. For me I’d just like smooth 144hz at whatever FOV can give me a native rendering resolution. 12K seems futureproof unless you talk about varifocal tech.
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Anything less than Index FOV would be a disappointment, for any new HMD. When using the Index I actually sometimes forget about the FOV…throw on a Quest 2 and I barf
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Pimax have said that the 12k is actually easier to run than the 8kx due to DFR, the XR2 and a few other factors. So I guess if you had a 3070 or better then you’re going to enjoy the 12k. It’s also fairly future proof in that as computing hardware improves, you’ll be able to get more out of your exising headset.
I can’t imagine anyone spending 2500+ for a 12k not having, at the very least, a 3070.
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I can’t imagine anyone spending 2500+ for a 12k not having, at the very least, a 3070.
Agreed. but I wonder if my Nvidia RTX 3090 still is sufficient to run the eye candy in full res and no FoV lost AND someting like 90Hz or better.
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I don’t think that’s actually true at all. There have been studies that concluded that most people preferred higher FOV over clarity if given the choice. I think what we’re seeing is the minority that favor clarity over FOV being very loud about it.
Observe the success of the Index even over other VR headsets that are considerably less expensive than it is. The Index has the second largest FOV on the consumer market (distantly) behind the Pimax. And it has among the lowest resolution and clarity. And yet it continues to outsell everything else besides the sold-way-below-cost Quest 2 even though the Index is old at this point. There are more reasons for that than just its FOV, but the FOV is definitely a major contributor.
I think that opinions about FOV vs clarity get pretty skewed by a preponderance of flight simmers posting on certain forums (like this one). Flight sims represent a very different and specialized use case for VR, and the importance of clarity becomes substantially increased. But flight sims are a very niche market. High clarity/narrow FOV VR headsets like the Reverb G2 seem to have substantial penetration in that market, but have almost no penetration in the more general VR market.
It has continued to baffle me that new VR headsets come out that are not better than the Index for the general market despite being made with technology that is years newer. It’s like these companies have never heard of the Index or understood what aspects about it have made it so successful.
I see Pimax as the only other company that’s on the right path to truly better VR for not just flight sims.
I’ve done a lot of performance testing on the 8KX to compare it to the Index and also seek the best settings for VRChat and other games. I built up a big spreadsheet of performance data.
What surprised me in this data was just how effective foveated rendering was. And how it became even more effective as FOV and resolution was increased. Based on my own performance testing with the 8KX, I completely believe Pimax’s claims that the 12K can be effectively driven by current high end GPUs. The numbers work out.
In order to achieve this, eye tracking and DFR have to be completely integral to the 12K’s design. It has to work, and it has to work well. The 12K will be reliant upon it.
The PSVR2 is going this route, too.
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I actually feel the same way about the 8KX already. Lesser GPUs can’t push the 8KX beyond the Index’s performance envelope. And if you can’t do that, you’re frankly better off using an Index.
I waited until I was able to upgrade from a 2080 Super to a 3080 Ti before I even seriously considered the 8KX. And this was the right call. Even a 3080 Ti struggles to drive the 8KX to 90fps.
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In today’s GPU market its easy to see why someone would have an 8KX and not have a 30 series GPU. Damn things are nearly impossible to get unless you’re willing to pay way over msrp for one. I have a 1080ti and I’ve gotten good results with my 8KX even though I obviously can’t come anywhere near to driving it at its full potential. Even at partial potential it still gave me a better experience than my Index, which is why I sold the Index. I’ve been in the EVGA que for a 3080 for going on 2 years now and fully believe the 40 series cards will release before my turn comes around if it ever actually does.
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If users valued fov above all else then i think there would be more than 1% of steamvr users who are Pimax users. The G2 with its high res + low fov has more users I bet. I think the Index does well yes for its fov partly, but for other reasons too like knuckles being the best controllers and Valves excellent support reputation. The Index’s horizontal fov isn’t that much more than the usual 100 degrees or so of other hmd’s.
Fov is important for me - to a point. I usually run my 8kx at Normal fov and find this 140 degrees as acceptable. Resolution is important too for me (i’m not just a flight simmer, i play other games too) and it is for others i think. Look at how when vr stats are revealed and compared that resolution is very prominent.
Going back to the 12K and its 35ppd, ive seen this and its really nice. To have this over a wide fov will be great. I just think that say by 12K release Varjo (or Apple or Valve) have an Aero 2 or Deckard etc thats 45 ppd and narrow fov. I’m not sure which i’d choose.
Edit: i still think i’d go for a 12K as its wireless, inside out tracking, 200hz etc etc i don’t see that being beaten in competitors next hmd iteration but who knows?
There is more. Most of our headsets aren’t even detected at all. Some are detected as Vive’s due to the checkbox for that among other things. Also if you have 2 or more vr headsets it only records 1 so if you have a Q2 last detected it will show that instead of whatever else you have. Honestly it’s an incredibly flawed measure.
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