What do you mean? As I said, SDE is way better on the 8K.
For me SDE on the 8K is a closed case…I was speaking of spatial resolution as define in this thread. aka the capacity to resole unequivocally details like the dial readings in the flight sims cockpits. I don’t speak of sharpness related to increase in edges sharpness which I call here Acutance.
Non of the capture images I’ve seen event hint that the 8K can be on the same level with the 5K+ on this specific aspect. What is your take on that?
With an ostensible 9% PPI increase from the 5k, to the 5k+, and assuming the display panels are the exact same size in the 5k (regular) as the 8k, and assuming any unused part of the screens are included in the 1440p picture that goes from the computer to the HMD, you should have correspondingly higher effective resolution in the 5k+ (more real detail, regardless of how many physical pixels it is spread out across), than both the 5k and 8k, as less of both panel and incoming picture is wasted on a black rectangle, and can show/carry actual content instead: 9% higher spatial resolution.
I am assuming that by a dithering-like quality, you are referring to the screen door effect (particularly the crosshatch one of the 8k), coupled with the ability of the camera to capture it, as well as how it turns out when the photo is downsampled. One can also see a bit of moire patterning, both between the camera and the image, and the capture and any subsequent scaling of it.
The contrast certainly seems excessively high in the 5k+ images (to the point blacks are crushed), producing the high acutance.
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Is it possible that 8K need a better HDMI cable? I know in movie projector w/ upscaling, sometimes users complain about not getting 8.2 million pixels on the screen (limit to just 4.1 millions pixels) but as soon as they change to a better higher quality HDMI cable, the projector were able to received full 8.2 million pixels. Just a thought!
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On the 5K+ image I can see some dots, like what @SweViver noticed on orange background.
Subjectively I see more than 9% spatial resolution difference between the 2 headset and this is “strange”
No their is something else like a post processing effect but unlike spatial resolution it can be related to many more thing including the capture method and image compression of the capturing device but again why just on the 8K captures?
What I’m trying to say is that even with the 9% handicap the spatial resolution should be better. like other here I’m wondering why…
A theory popped into my head when I heard him say this for the tenth time. Basically the crap upscaler makes up crap info around the true informational pixels which is what causes blur.
To me it seems possible that this “detail” is simply a load of bullshit upsampling pixels which aren’t actually providing any info but are making it look more detailed because there are more little tiny pixels doing random things in the area. With the 5 though what you see is what you get. Less pixels but each one is clean and is 100% information.
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I have a way more simple theory… there’s a bug in the software and the input resolution of the 8k is not really 1440p but lower. That would explain the lack of details in the final image.
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You seem to be level headed and spent 3 hours or more with the HMDs in Berlin. I kind of trust your opinion as an alternative to the reviewers. I read your post and watched the videos with your opinion. Now you have no doubt seen all these through the lens images and videos, stills etc. As someone who is confident with sticking to the 8K, can you say once and for all how representative these images are compared to actually looking through the lenses of the two HMDs.
I think they are totally misleading and not a good indication at all. Sweviver kind of says this. Mr TV is kind of confusing me when he should be comparing those images to what he actually sees in the HMD not what he sees in the images (correct me if I am wrong if that is what he is doing or not).
Edit. Mr TV said his comparison is based on what he sees in the HMD not the images…
Anyway. Again, I would like to know swan’s reasons for sticking with the 8K. Are the SDE differences that bad?
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Dear Rob, thanks for your trust in my opinion 
All I can say is, the stills are telling something which is far from what I’ve witnessed here in Berlin.
From day one of VR I’m highly critical of the technical side of things. SDE annoys me beyond anything, monoscopic content is straight from hell, current gen will always look to me worse than an 80ies VHS session.
I looked for the flaws in the 8k, I’m aware of the pitfalls, I’m super critical of the quality of the vive pro for example.
We Berlin testers all liked the quality of the 8K. lack of clarity compared to the 5k was no issue for us.
I felt the sharpness of the 5k comes for a price: sharp edges on ‘oculus go like’ pixels may look sharp at best, but maybe also pixelated at worse, while I simply liked the smooth next gen feel of the 8k.
But maybe I’m still a little more biased than the next guy, since video content will be essential for my artistic work.
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Thanks for responding. Do you think there are calibration issues as well as differences between individual headsets that could cause discrepancies? I watched the Berlin meetup videos (again) and it seemed pretty unanimous to me that most attendees favoured the 8K. There has to be a reason for this and if it was so bad then more would have sided with the 5K+. It’s interesting then, that the reviewers prefer the 5K+ though. maybe then it just all boils down to personal preference.
For me, the left image is more sharp, but those edges look yuk. I much prefer the image on the right with the smoother edges. Do you think this picture accurately highlights the differences between 5K+ & 8K? In my view having seen them all (my gawd) I believe it does.
There is a difference between being able to spend a short rushed time trying out something vs having the time to try to optimize an experience and play through it in a controlled manner.
I can say the 3 reviews underlined my experience at the meetup. testing ED and looking especially at all the cockpit panels and text readability, we (some other backers and me) had the strong impression, that the 5K+ delivered a better picture quality. and we mainly spoke about and tested specifically ED and Arizona. That was day one at the meetup and we were kinda confused, because we were expecting a lot better picture quality from the 8K. Now knowing that both headsets were driven by the same settings in PiTool and steamVR and having the explanation from the testers (especially voodoo.de pointed that out very thoroughly), that the 8K kinda needs tremendous amounts of SS to somehow match the 5K benefits of a native panel, its very clear to me.
I can say (and i know that some backers like @TheSwanCollective are really convinced off the SDE differences) That the 5K+ looked really good and way better than the 8K specifically in ED when looking at panels and stuff. The SDE differences did’nt concern me at all and i wouldn’t speak about them, because for me they weren’t apparent. (for others they may). The overall better image quality on the other hand clearly won me over for the 5K+ and i’m verry happy that all of the testers were coming to the same conclusion. so playability as in hardware possibilities and picture quality kinda nails it for me, pledging for the 5K. Even if i’m an 8K backer as well. I don’t want to use way more SS and PC horsepower to have an image quality equal but still smeared in comparison to the 5K+, that delivers me the same for less.
I could also imagine, that for some people the mixture of disappointment, that the 8K isn’t performing so good as we all dreamed it would be and just getting their pledge kinda downgraded from 8K to 5K could be difficult. headwise.
but let me tell you from my totally subjective point of view. The 5K+ just delivers a crisp clear, smooth and beautiful virtual reality experience, that can be driven by my hardware (1080ti) and even be upgraded SS-wise with future hardware and thats whats most important to me. I don’t want the picture to be downscaled/upscaled and the delivered to my eyes like a scrambled egg.
cheers.
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Of course, I agree partially but on the other hand first impressions do count. I also believe the longer you spend with it, the more you begin to over-analyse. Your brain also becomes used to things and then your opinion can become biased based on your personal preferences. I believe that if all we had was a series of controlled tests with no pressure as to when the results were released then the answer would become more clear. The fact remains, the reviewers were under extreme pressure to not only test two products, one of which they had no previous experience with, but also construct their reviews for a deadline rather than just focus on comparing results. That’s a lot to work with for just one person. It’s not easy making video content. You don’t just point the camera, talk, upload to Youtube and be done with it.
I wish Pimax would be forthcoming with their own observations but again, bias becomes an issue here. So hopefully, once more testing is done once the dust has settled, and more people get to use either HMDs then it becomes more clear. That’s all I can hope for really. I am backer 3700 odd.
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It all in the degrees, but the 8K captures showed by the 3 amigos had somewhat more blur than your example and you must take in consideration that the reviewers had a lot more time with the devices than the backers in Berlin. The first time I’ve seen the PSVR I was really impressed same goes for my first 15 minutes with the Vive. Not so much now…
If SDE is your allergy or video your main use for VR go for the 8K no discussion here but has you can see even here in this thread a Berlin backer (SallwitzBerlin Meetup) preferred the 5K+
To good thing here is in exception from our deception the 2 headsets are very close in overall performance just annoying we have to choose between 2 things we want : Clarity & less SDE
Thank you for your additional thoughts on this. I chose to go with the 5K but I still must admit that it was hard to go with the lower resolution panel choice. The thought that keeps coming to my mind is I’m making this choice based on comparisons between the 5K and 8K which I will never personally be able to do. My comparison is really going to be between my Samsung Odyssey, Vive and Rift experience with the Pimax headset. I wonder if the 8k improvement over those headsets would still be massive even if it doesn’t currently meet the clarity level of the 5k. If it has much greater clarity than those along with the better SDE then I would probably be satisfied (at least until I come to the forum and read more about the 5k lol) I suspect additional improvements may come with the 8k rendering in Pi-tool which could bring it in line with or at least closer to the 5k clarity without having to do the SS currently needed. If that were to happen then it sounds like it would be the better headset. But of course that may not happen…
yeah we don’t know that with the software related could-be and could-be-nots. But i can assure you that both headset experiences are kinda pristine and superior to my vive and vive pro experiences and offcourse to the rift. with the PiTool 1.0 and SteamVR 40-100% settings. For the odyssey i can’t tell.
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Yeah my impression from the Berlin meetup is that most people preferred the 5K+. I had to search for the few who thought they preferred the 8K.
What I wonder is this: had there been no 5K+ would everyone say “oh gosh this is too blurry” with the 8K. I don’t think so at all. But we now annoyingly have this choice.
To me, the fact that it’s so debatable and hard to tell suggests there’s not one clear winner. And for that reason alone surely the 5K+ is the one to go for as we can be 100% certain that it will run far better FPS, supersampling, game quality etc. Why opt for one that is arguably slightly better for SDE for some that requires MUCH more GPU power?
Having said that I remain undecided and confused.
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Most people will never have a direct comparison between the two options. So if you get yours, however you decide, you will be satisfied
Another way to say there is “no clear winner” is: Both headsets are good and there is no “bad” choice. I really dislike pixel jaggies, so I’ll probably get the 8K (especially if Pimax can improve the display with driver tweaks to pre-sharpen the image).
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