Pimax 8K/8K X 90Hz hurdles [for tech savvy]

What is not civil about our comments? He thinks I can only read and tell specs, not interpret missing data from Pimax about real reasons 90Hz is not as stable with 1x bridge chip version(1DP) comparing to 2x bridge chip version(2xHDMI). I have every right to guess/theorize about it until Pimax give us explanation. Not just throw in 10 reasons, as cable/pixel clock/EMI etc. PimaxSWD - actual engineer, not marketing person, said they plan 2xDP(on 8K) because of no DSC on MIPI with 1xDP. Maybe they decide to stick to 1DP and try roll without DSC on MIPI but run into issues above 82Hz, and this will not resolve 90Hz issue.
You can wait for their explanation, or accept mine, or disregard mine. I don’t force anyone on anything. Just write my understanding of known tech limits to native 4K/eye VR.

4 Likes

You must be thick skinned because I have definitely seen some not so civil comments aimed in your direction as of late. I really appreciate your posts, even if I don’t fully understand everything you are trying to explain. I hope you continue to post from the computer science and theory side of the coin. Makes for interesting reads and as of late some colorful commentary.

5 Likes

Yea, I get used to it by now, I throw in actual tech perspective on the problems, and get attacked by people without counter-argument, they justify Pimax lack of sharing the tech details to public about problems. And justify putting marketing on place where you need real number(spec) like 75/82/90 not like they did, 90/eye(8K), or 90/async(4K) . So by the looks of things, we will get actual specs from backers not from Pimax :smiley: .
I think that is a bit sad, in internet era, if you don’t share some info, it’s usually because you want to hide it. Why hide it? They use excuse like NDA, but we don’t ask about panel maker(who is), but actual specs of panel/driver IC. I hate hiding the specs, hence my name xD

1 Like

I tend to lean this way as well. At this point, I’m already a backer so it does not matter. If there is some less than appealing news, I would rather they just break it to me rather than hoping I do not notice. Nothing worse than a bait and switch whether literally or actually.

1 Like

8K or 8K X ? 8K X can still turn out decent, from what I read 8K X has chance to be 4k@90Hz (with DSC) per eye input. Now does DSC(compression) effect image quality we don’t know really, in 2D world, where panels are not magnified VESA claims no impact, in VR not so sure… I consider 8K X as DK1 of Gen 2 VR, if it delivers real FOV, and native input res@90Hz . It seems well though off, price is a bit high, but that is price for getting first latest tech.

Pimax 8K so far is changed from original idea too many times. Original idea was 2xHDMI, then 1xDP, then they found out it need 2xDP, then stick to 1xDP and use 2xDP for 8K X(cause 2xDP is probably more costly than 2xHDMI). Compromise, so far is stable refresh rate(82 vs 90). Is Brainwarp put out as idea to compensate for this compromise, time will tell. Because Pimax for sure won’t xD

I picked the 8K considering the overall hardware demands for the 8K-X sounded like a challenge. I’m already planning to upgrade to 1080ti or Volta depending on final specs. I already have an HTC Vive and not looking forward to shelling out a few large for the next gen experience. Hopefully I won’t have to.

Ok, maybe 8K will be mid gen upgrade like ps4 pro, xbone x, they claim 4K gaming but it’s 30fps or upscaled(mostly), looks like Pimax has same problems, upscaling input and reaching 90fps/hz :slight_smile: . I already wrote somewhere if you have Vive, 8K(only HMD) can be interesting addition even replacement if MTP is low enough for 200FOV to not make owner sick when moving a lot.
Edit: And if you have 1080Ti or plan to buy one, 1070 they recommend is not something I recommend for good MTP in most games. Just from math when comparing rendering at 1.4k/ eye in Vive vs ~4k/eye in Pimax 8k.

1 Like

So far no one has ever talked about “async” anything in Pimax 8K. In order to claim all the conclusions your wrote above you need some solid supporting info. Where did you get this info?

The problem with @SpecsReader posts is that he tries to disguise his wild theories as the facts.

1 Like

I asked Pimax about that . And said if they don’t give info I will assume is same method used in 4K 90Hz async as with 8K 90Hz/eye (async) source. If you read specs about 8K, they put 75/ 90 per eye, then put brainwarp in same line. With brainwarp you can mask async input 60Hz displayed on 90Hz per eye. If you can’t understand my logic, sorry. We just don’t have other explanation, I think mine is good enough.

Explain why bother with per eye, then 180Hz and Brainwarp if it’s 90Hz sync as Rift/Vive/Win MR/PSVR etc? Give me your theory. I listen. I don’t say all my theory is right, I was wrong few times, and corrected over time. With new data, but Pimax provide very little new data so far.

If you look at the info graphics at KS page about brain warp you notice that it means rendering frames for left and right eye in “leapfrogging” fashion. The frame rates visible by each eye remain the same, the time point however are shifted for T/2 (where T is 1/F, F is refresh rate).
To give an example:
t=0, left eye is rendered
t=T/2, right eye is rendered
t=T, left eye is rendered
t=T+T/2, right eye is rendered
etc.
Refresh rate observed by left eye is 1/(T-0) = 1/T = F
Refresh rate observed by right eye is 1/(T+T/2-T/2) = 1/T = F
Which means F per eye.
Now from the global system perspective, the displayed information changes, twice as fast, because the left and right eyes are interleaved. So we can say the overall system refresh rate is 1/(T/2) = 2F.
If you assign F=75 Hz per eye, you get overall refresh rate 2
75=150 Hz, for F=90 Hz, you get overall refresh rate 180 Hz.

So far it is just playing with numbers, to explain “per eye” and “with brainwarp”. It does not explain whether brain warp is actually good for anything or not (I have my doubts). On the other hand, what Pimax wrote in the line you quoted and what they showed in the info graphics is technically coherent and correct. You do not need to make it more complex and convoluted by trying to relate it to Pimax 4K headset tech, which is clearly quite different.

1 Like

I made a mistake. If you use low persistence backlight you don’t need async 90 as on Pimax 4K. And 8K don’t use shutters, shutters are needed when you don’t have real CLPL. My bad on that.

Now here is the thing, since you can feed actually 60Hz input sync on one eye, you just turn off backlight after half of simulated refresh interval(11ms/90Hz per eye simulated), so display 60Hz for 1/180 5.5ms, and while you do that, display in that same interval 60Hz input on other eye, you will fool the brain that it is seeing 90Hz. Because it gets actually data from game world(render in engine) with delay of 11ms, just not from same eye perspective. You will have 11ms delay per eye, instead of 16.6ms delay between both eyes. I will write detailed with time diagram when I get time. But I am 99% sure it can be used to fool the brain that 60FPS is 90FPS, at least in theory.

1 Like

They say that each eye renders half of a frame, but not of the same frame.
Nor do they seem to use shutters; they use low persistence displays. The shutters would obscure the displays and these are as bright as some OLEDs.

I think you take it for granted that the same frame is always drawn for both eyes and that there are shutters, it seems to me that Pimax does not do any of those things.

18 posts were split to a new topic: Specsreader’s BW speculations

Sometimes these sort of maneuvers (withholding key aspects) is sort of a speculation agitator. It keeps the buzz, hype and outlandish to rational theories going until they come out and say “hey your mostly wrong, we did it!”.

Pimax 8K Review & Hands-on (SweViver)
youtu.be/93Fd8atublU?t=19m37s

Close one, it was some girl actually with HMD on, but close enough for imagination to kick in :smiley:

Ok, you win, you know more about subject than me. You have knowledge about how Brainwarp works with 8K, something that only exists as idea ATM. I have wrong assumption about that idea, when idea becomes reality, come again and read my diagram. If wrong, input is 90FPS, on output 180Hz I will admit I was wrong. 90FPS as what is render by GPU in game engine, not 90FPS that is made with ASW/ATW/reprojection etc.

1 Like