8K Review Eric H

For people who haven’t seen it yet

Here’s a good honest review of the 8K in SF

My question to him:

Me
"Hi Eric. A bunch of us on the Pimax forum are trying to figure out why not many people are flat out recommending the 8K over current HMD options Rift and Vive. Norm and Jeremy from Tested both summed up they would not suggest it for gaming but for VR desktop and movies it would be worth it. They claim the current headsets are more solid and suitable for gaming. Could this simply be because of the buggy state of the prototype? Do you think if these problems were resolved in the final production prototype it would be the clear winner or is the extreme FOV and size more of a gimmick?

Eric
My initial thought is that currently, the 200 degree FOV, similar to the hand tracking device, is just simply not being developed for at this time. I think that the more users that support the PiMax 5k and 8k headsets, the more demand is created for that type of content. It’s basically segregating an already small segment of game and app development in VR and saying “Now make it support a completely different FOV.” In today’s market, I think we would just see a lot of current software with a bit more FOV but not games where the bad guys start out in your peripheral view and that spatial awareness is something you need. I think my recommendations are similar to Norm and Jeremy from Tested in that virtual desktop applications and movies will immediately shine on the wider FOV. I think it is going to take a while or a huge influx of interest to get normal games, apps and experiences to capitalize on the wider FOV. If nothing else though, you will get a resolution bump and somewhat future proof for when wider FOV hopefully becomes standard in the future.

Me
Thanks for the explanation. So as far as the better resolution, Less SDE and reduced god rays go would you say it defiantly beats the Vive?

Eric
Significantly less SDE and I can’t really judge on the god rays as neither demo we did really showed white on black. Visual clarity as the result of the resolution is definitely improved.

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So it seems folks are still having issues understanding that VR native games can & do render the FOV requested by the headset.

Since Fruit Ninja is old & under that belief would not render the 200°FOV. Even though Doc-Ok & such have confirmed it is rendering correctly.

@deletedpimaxrep1 @pimaxvr to get folks to understand this it is imperative to have folks like Doc-Ok & Tested review the new model with a game that will get folks to see. Onward sounds like it could be a good choice & as mentioned ED. Car Racing would be an excellent choice like Project Cars, Dirt Rally etc.

Need big titles to really showcase the real value & capability.

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It seems Eric was just talking about what he saw at the demonstration. If all games will naturally render with wide FOV as promised then it should be a huge upgrade over Vive. No reason why not with all the improvements

It really comes down what games they are demonstrating. My best suggestion would be to put people through a quick Elite Dangerous training mission with an xbox controller

Most likely the laptop is restricting what they can show

@deletedpimaxrep1 @bacon Please consider showing some AAA+ games with the next prototype so people can feel the true potential of your product. You could be reaching 3 million+ on kickstarterif you just showed the right games!!

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Hey there, it’s Erik H from the YouTube video and comments. Thanks for your interest.

While you seem to be dismissing my opinion as ill informed or uneducated related to FOV, I wanted to clarify a bit.

While current software can and will be rendered for the higher FOV, as evidenced by all of the titles we demoed, gameplay mechanics and applications are not currently being intentionally coded to take advantage of the peripheral view and wider image that a 200 degree FOV affords. The window to the virtual world would indeed be larger but there wouldn’t be a core gameplay mechanic or application requirement that uses that periphery.

I’m currently satisfied with the FOV the Vive and Rift provide for current titles. That’s my own personal opinion. When I start playing a game, I may notice some screen door effect or binocular effect from the FOV, but once in game or app, I focus on the world I am transported into and the SDE and reduced FOV kind of falls away.

I wasn’t trying to discourage purchase of a Pimax 8k. I think the Pimax 8k is a fantastic future thinking device after the demo. I just don’t feel like the wider FOV and resolution bump justify the purchase of yet another headset for me right now. I have great friends who were some of the first backers for the PiMax and I was excited to confirm for them that even the rough around the edges prototype was a noticeable improvement in some aspects over the Vive and Rift.

I also had some discomforting IPD issues in my demo. That didn’t necessarily entice me to spend $500 on a headset that may never work right for my eyes.

To keep things in perspective, I was one of the last people to upgrade from standard definition to 1080p on my television and I still don’t have a 4k television or monitor. I have significant interest in virtual reality and immersive entertainment but until the content comes out to justify a wide screen view, I can live with a bit of SDE and a goggle view.

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Hi Eminus. I totally understand and agree that some games will not be written for wide FOV. Games with set time ques like Super Hot where enemy’s are set to come from a particular place in your FOV or sequenced single player games where items have been placed based on your FOV would need some work. I do however feel open world and sim games would be a n instant advantage where you can see more naturally around your cockpit. Perfect example would be the ASP Explorer in Elite Dangerous. With wide FOV you would be able to partially see through the side bay windows without turning your head. Great if your in a dog fight or cruising past planets. Of course none of that natural scaling and FOV has been proven yet so we just wont know until we see a demo @deletedpimaxrep1

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Hey i wasn’t dismissing your review. Like you said the games demoed are not ones where the FOV will be of advantage.

There are however many games that can & will take advantage of the 200° Fov. Any game for example that can use a triple monitor setup: Project Cars & as @Davobkk mentioned ED & other driving/flying sims. Fps games like Onward & jump scare games can also benefit from high FOV.

Games like Fruit Ninja might be good for showing colors & lack of ghosting & god rays. But not designed to take advantage of needed more FOV.

I hear you on the 1080p TVs; years ago a buddy got his dad a 720p tv due to at a 6ft view distance at 42 inches most would not see any real difference.

The problem is they need better games to showcase the benefits of the vr hmd. & yes they need to get the new model in play with all the ipd functions working.

I do apologize forgot to mention it is a great review over all!

As for Rift/vive it was their mistake using Pentile Oled, had they used Rgb oled displays like Sony did in Psvr(yes i know they have just 1 panel) the sde would not be as bad.

Some interesting points brought up in this thread. I’m not a game developer so I’m not sure who’s right but I think @LoneTech might be able to explain some more

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I suspect only one game.

Subnautica fix fov at 60 degrees and it has debug mode which can set fov to 90 degrees, but 90 degrees can make distortion on vive while vive has 110 fov.

Not sure why vive don’t use sdk like pimax to get 110 fov from all the game.

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I’m not sure what I’m being asked here? It’s accurate that most games try not to demand a wide field of view, with a few exceptions that require frequent room scanning. I think Holopoint is a good example of this (but would be problematic for Pimax to demo because of the short cables and frequently limited space). Having a wider field of view there would not only feel less constrained but allow more efficient scanning. I don’t know what Subnautica does, but it’s somewhere in my library so I should be able to try it out. Several titles reduce FoV specifically to reduce immersion while moving, as a method to reduce sim sickness. It exploits a similar sense to the cockpit illusion without adding distinctive visual elements. Few tasks natively demand a wide field of operation; operating a large drum set comes to mind, where most of it is in the periphery and you’re rarely concentrating on vision. Many games have mechanics that are impractical purely because of these sorts of expectations; for instance, in Elite you have to point the ship at something you’re scanning, which makes little sense while scooping a star. You’d want to aim the scanner at the star while aiming the ship tangentially, so you can break away if you start to overheat. Similar story for scanning ship details and such; you can target anything in your view, but you have to aim the ship to scan.
A game could always restrict your view for whatever reason it chooses. The default is going to match the headset view, as information on that is passed from the drivers. And while wide, the angling permits the Pimax to stay clear of the critical issues with 180 degree field of view, although it could certainly be optimized by not rendering quite as detailed in the outer regions. I recall reading up on an experiment where low resolution rendering was effectively faked by putting a stippled pattern in the Z buffer, eliminating a portion of the pixels from shading without requiring multitarget rendering. It was effective, though naturally would alias more than plain rendering.

Also, welcome eminus / Erik H! Your contribution is most welcome.

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Well I kinda wonder how it works. Take Arizona Sunshine where you’re walking through a desert filled with zombies. Now the Pimax 8k demands a wider FoV from the game. I wonder if this extra FoV that you get also is part of gameplay, that you can see zombies now approaching you from an angle where you could see nothing before. So that there are actually things happening in your peripheral view. I have no clue how this actually works and if just asking for a wider FoV actually automatically translates to a bigger play area with gameplay characters.

Obviously games are not written with such a wide FoV in mind so I wonder how this translates to gameplay.

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The reference was about tge games being showcased generall the Wide FOV is not something say Fruit Ninja gameplay would benefit from.

Now games like Project Cars & such where you can have a 3 monitor setup can take advantage of wide FOV. Or games like FPS (Onward, Arizona Sunshine etc) as @Sjef said the wider fov would be an asset. As one user was mentioning having to turn alot to try & keep the zombies at bay.

I would be curious about killing floor vr on this. It was surprising that Tripwire was lured to Oculus with that release (Oculus must have offered something lucrative as Tripwire games are usually on steam)

The question I have are game queues based on position of the player or the direction/ FOV? For example Arizona sunshine if you walk into a cave and a zombie is queued to step out. That would be based on position not where your looking right?

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I think shooting game not specific fov for game play, there is only ghost game which will use specific the fov such as when I turn left around 140 degrees and turn back, the ghost will be appear. But when you turn 140 degrees in pimax, the ghost will show immediatly at the same point and you will not get surprised because ghost appeared in front of you immediatly.

Infact this sample is a bad game programming, it should use other condition although player use different fov, the ghost have to appeared when it out from fov.

If we are using 110, and ghost is hide at the center, we have to turn around 55 degree.

If we are using 200 fov, we have to turn left around 100 and turn right to see the ghost appear.

zombie in arizona sunshine should pre rendering already before player go to each position, may be it will stand at the same position, but if it check that player can see it, it will walk little and stop again when it is out of fov and this will helping to decrease working of cpu or gpu.

If some game have 2 modes to play (vr mode and non vr mode), it will specific fov and resolution already in the vr mode. Example everspaces, I think they lock for rendering and their game can support the low gpu to play because vr mode use more spec to play. Still not sure about locking for distortion.

If there is some game dev tell that their game still not support high fov such as raw data, you have to check that how they create the enemy, may be high fov can’t hide the enemy point in their game. That is problem of game design, not headset problem.

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And thank you for the cleaned up audio from my review. Lots of folks really appreciate it!

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@eminus Just been talking to VoodooDE on you tube. He’s going to come post a review for us

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Awesome need more reviews the better. Hopefully we can get some views on black levels & such

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Thanks Davobkk,yes, we are trying to find some AAA+ games! Thanks to all the advices, we will test and try to provide the contents that can show the potential of 8K

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It’s an interesting game design question. Shooters in the style of Arizona Sunshine trace their roots back to the arcade galleries, where the target range is at the least limited to one side, frequently further split in narrow lanes. In video games it soon developed into the on rails shooters like Time Crisis.

Many of the VR titles stick to the one side formula so as not to produce much cable tangle or surprises, ranging from the narrow like Holoball or Audioshield to the wider like Space Pirate Trainer or Blarp. Those last two compensate a little by giving access to a shield you can use to cover some directions you’re not currently looking. Blarp further eliminates surprises by having all action originate from player action; the chaotic multidirectional results stem from continuous physics only.

Many video games use an “out of sight, out of mind” strategy, where the simulated game world doesn’t extend far beyond what can be seen. A good example of this is Grand Theft Auto, where cars exist only a small distance out of the screen edges. This traces back to other limitations, such as memory and processing speed. Two well known titles showing this are Pac-Man and Asteroids which employ wrapping at the screen edges, a geometry topologically equivalent to a donut world. This became a tougher problem with 3D graphics and first person perspectives, with workarounds like Doom’s binary space partitioning. Many games have serious issues with pop-in because once you look horizontally there really isn’t a limit to how far, an effect that should be well known in driving simulations.

Technically, in 3D graphics rendering we use a viewing frustum wherein things are visible. Stereoscopic systems use at least one per eye, giving slightly different perspectives. The depths are frequently chosen for numeric precision in the Z buffer, the field of view to match display hardware (often slightly wider to permit late adjustment, known as time warp or reprojection). The resolution of the render buffer is chosen as a compromise between required performance and display capability. VR systems control the placement and orientation entirely by the viewer’s, and in the case of Pimax 5K/8K models, the rendering planes should be angled outwards just like the displays are. More advanced techniques like multiresolution shading are done using more frustums, in this case touching, while Varjo and similar setups (perhaps a projected sim tent with a central monitor) can overlap them. In that case, an occlusion model like SteamVR’s hidden area stencil mesh can be used to reduce the effective overlap. Multi-screen systems, like CAVE and early Doom’s three screen mode, also use these techniques. Things like nvidia’s surround really should, but I think for compatibility reasons just stick to adding more views into one plane.

Many other games compensate for a wider field of action by placing the viewer elsewhere, ranging from over the shoulder views to full on god view. The Lab contains a game, Xortex, which applies that technique nicely in VR; the player controls a ship at arm’s length. This makes it easier to survey the surroundings of that ship, and threats can occur from many directions. Another well known example is Lucky’s Tale. Some games even shrink the action range further to a theatrical view, for example Witchblood. This technique is automated in Theatre Mode.

It’s no accident that the last two I mentioned in the reduced field of action example are Oculus sponsored titles. Essentially, the bigger the budget, the wider they want the audience, and that will include stationary people who don’t turn around (perhaps sitting in a sofa). This is the main reason why wider field of action will be rare in “triple A” games.

With my very limited knowledge of available titles, if I were to pick a game to try to demonstrate wide FoV gameplay, I would first consider Space Pirate Trainer. It’s well known, mostly sticks to a 180 degree field, but does successively widen the region you want to pay attention to while permitting the player to remain largely stationary. The second game I’d consider is Racket: Nx, third Blarp. These aren’t your big budget titles, but they’re ones where the game can grow in width without demanding the player move along excessively (though SPT certainly encourages it a bit more). It wouldn’t surprise me if Blarp is also very low on GPU demands. They’re all focused heavily on the motion controls too.

Pardon my unstructured rambling. Did I get any closer to addressing the question?

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Thanks for this in-depth breakdown.

Last night, I explored a bit with my HP Windows Mixed Reality headset for the first time in a while. The thing that I noticed after using the PiMax is that the text clarity is very similar, however the field of view on the WindowsMR headset is significantly narrower. It is just slightly smaller than the Rift and Vive but after using the PiMax it is even more noticeable.

I can’t give a fair review of the WindowsMR platform just yet as I don’t have their motion controllers but playing a SteamVR game on WindowsMR using a developer preview bridge works well and I love the simplicity of setup with WindowsMR.

I feel like if the PiMax was shipping with awesome inside out tracking in addition to the resolution bump and field of view and if the issues from the prototype I was able to try out are corrected, I would absolutely preference it over the Vive or Rift. It’s weird that I want to demand an additional technological advancement in an already future thinking system but I wanted to share that observation.

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